{HMS}_Sir_Del_Boy
Member
+69|6720|th3 unkn0wn

jonnykill wrote:

I look at it this way . I believe the current engine of the game people spawn in order of rank . So naturally people who are good at flynig or being a tanker spawn at the points where they can snag what ever vehicle or aircraft that they are good at . Some people are tankers , some are pilots . They mastered their skill over the last few months and deserve to get a "better slot " . With this in mind the people who have lower rank spawn last and can't get into the tank or the jet lets say .These are the noobs who get frustrated and start shooting you up as you drive away or take off . This pisses off the vet who can rack up 100 points a level .Specially when he has about 30% of his armour chipped off by the friendly fire .  He will eventually die and respawn in front of 8 idiots waiting for the chopper . Every game , every level , every server fillled with people who, instead of going off and capping flags , wait for the chooper\tank and eventually die from artillery or jets looking for easy kills when these idiots are nicely clustered together - such a juicey target . As far as who's the whore here I would say the noob who really wants to fly and TK's the veteran pilot even though he has 4 hours of flying under his belt .
Example : I was on Daquil Oil Plant ( how ever you spell it ) and this is what happened . I was on the chineese side , i spawn at the airport to see if I could snag a chopper . I spawn and , not to my suprise , see like 8-9 guys waiting for the chopper . I was like WTF ? I check the radar and don't see we have a chopper . I know it's going to spawn any second now , gee I wonder whats going to happen next ? . I knew the chances of me getting the chopper were slim so I just observed the situation . I jumped into a jeep and just watched as 2 guys run past me to the chopper pad . I just knew it was the pilot and gunner who just died and respwned . They run into the crowd and position themsevles perfectly and snag the chopper as soon as it spawned . As soon as the rotors started spinning everyone shot the chopper up till it smoked . Then the chopper took off and now all these idiots are teamkilling each other after reloading thier weapons , and of course a medic is snagging points by healing\reviving them .  Luckily I got a chance to join the US team and did so . I spawned at a nearby flag ( the gas station ) and grabbed a quick buggy . I made my way to the Chineese airport . I get a view of all these idiots still waiting by the chopper pad . So I proceeded at full speed and ran over 4 of them in one pass . I swing around and run over another 1 , then a nother one . By this time I took a beating so I drove up onto the big hill at the far side of the aiport , made myself a squad and called for a sup drop . I got it just a second or two after I called for it and re-uped and headed off to run some more idiots over . I ran over 4 more and went back to heal up at sup drop . Then I did the same thing again racking up 5 more kills .In between these runs I took out the artillery in 2 passes - no engineer in sight .  Next thing you know the round is over and the score is 150-0 . No dout the whore award goes to the idiots who stood around to do nothing but get killed waiting for a chopper and killing teamates\health poaching .
And what is this crap about being a whore as some people call it when regaurding to a person who only use the grenade launcher ? This is obviously someone who is probably new to the game and needs to max this particular class out to unlock the next weapon . Or perhaps they are just really good at it and think they can do their team a good service by kicking some ass with a weapon they know how to use . Countless complaint threads have been made about this and that weapons ability and the people who "whore them " . Your not taking anything into consideration when they complain out getting killed by this and that weapon . I understand thier frustration , I've been killed by so many jets I wish they were removed from the game , but come one now - the "noob toob " ??? WTF??? I get killed with every weapon in the game by some people over and over . I got sniped by the same sniper 4 times in a row when I first started plaing on one level but I figured " damn , this guy is good I gotta take evasive action " . Never though of writing a complaint about someones ability to kill me though . I just don't get it .
Erm....have you ever heard of "paragraphs" m8? Try using them some time instead of trying to induce a flippin' headache.
A-Unit64
King Medic......
+23|6853
THEIR ARE WHORES OUT THEIR!  LIVE WITH IT!  Prevent whoring by killing them.

If you cant kill them...well thats your fault. Sometimes, no most of the time, people try to get bases and kill who spawns in front of them some times people camp and kill you when you spawn, pawn on a different spawn point of spawn as AT. WHATEVER YOU DO STOP BEING INMATURE! YOU 2 YEAR old freaks...
=[4th]=SlayThem
Destroy Noob Cannons
+96|6845

Talsyn wrote:

whore

"Whoring" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (hôr, hr)
n.

   1. A prostitute.
   2. A person considered sexually promiscuous.
   3. A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain.


intr.v. whored, whor·ing, whores

   1. To associate or have sexual relations with prostitutes or a prostitute.
   2. To accept payment in exchange for sexual relations.
   3. To compromise one's principles for personal gain.

'Nuff said

And in a REAL war, people don't get the chance to complain about their enemy 'base raping' them.
All may not be fair in love and war..... But in any case, shut the fuck up and deal
"Gay"
gay   Audio pronunciation of "gay" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (g)
adj. gay·er, gay·est

   1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
   2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
   3. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.
   4. Given to social pleasures.
   5. Dissolute; licentious.


n.

   1. A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.
   2. A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.


If that's the meaning,
Then why do people say "That's gay." or "That tv show is gay!" etc. in terms of "stupid?"

It's called SLANG, smartass.


And to the topic creator. How about you just shrug this off like you supposedly do when you get killed in the game by some noob with the grenade launcher? I paid 50 bucks for this game, and by golly I'm gonna complain when I die because some faggot doesn't know how to shoot his damn bullets, hops around like kangaroo trying to reload his noobtube because he missed me the first time, and then somehow kills me after I unload a full clip of my Assault rifle, plus half a clip of the pistol!
And I'm also going to complain when I got one shotted after unloading a full clip into a mother fooker's back and he turns around and shoots me once and I die!
I'm going to complain as much as I damn well please. And there is NOTHING any of you complaining "lamers" can do/say to make me stop complaining.
EA/DICE obviously figured out that there was SOMETHING wrong about the exploitation of the noobtube, C4throwing, and dolphin diving, because they're fixing it. And YES, that's exactly what it is, EXPLOITING A DEFECT IN THE GAME.
Lemme guess, next you're going to say that Glitching isn't cheating? it's the exact same thing, buddy. there's a crack in the map and people get into it and massacre. there's a screwup in the jumping/prone, grenade launcher, and C4, and people massacre with it.
ComradeWho
Member
+50|6707|Southern California
I just want to reiterate that i don't rely on "dolphin diving" or whatever. But i also have never had any problem splattering somebody who is doing that towards me and making them feel like a fool.

as far as nade launchers are concerned: i'm glad it's easy for anybody to use. it should be. that's what the class is for. a class that's easy to use and lethal at close range.

and as for "a majority of the players have spoken and want these changes and if they hadn't EA wouldn't make em." or whatever you said - give me a break. alls it takes is an extremely vocal minority for changes to be initiated. which group of players are more likely to devote more energy in larger numbers to making changes happen; the group that is fine with the game or the one that is mad because they get killed in ways they don't like? don't pretend that there's some moral superiority of a great mass that validates these changes, just a bunch of people, who don't represent most gamers, whining in forums.

I don't remember EA polling me on what changes would be likely. And I doubt people who are content to turn it on for a few hours every couple of days aren't going through the trouble of getting involved in community sites.
1927
The oldest chav in the world
+2,423|6685|Cardiff, Capital of Wales
A slight change in direction here. I love getting in the blackhawk at Mashtuur and grabbing the gun if quick enough. Then i'll enjoy mowing down as many enemies as possible.  When your on the other team its annyoing as hell.  This dont make me a whore because I try n get that chopper as soon as round starts everytime. It means I'm using the gun to rake up as many points as I can.  I'd say the game is the same for both sides except for the blackhawk vs the fat mec chopper. Well even it up, go and pinch a blackhawk. Shoot it down, theres plenty of jeeps if your AT'S cant hit it. 

I try and win every game but most importantly have fun and improve from the last time I played. The game is pure fun, yeah Im in it to win it, Ive never walked into any competition hoping not to win.  But it isnt real life like some people say and just to remind people of that. In a real battle could you run up and shock paddle someone aftet they just been blown into hundreds of little bits by a grenade? Magically sticking all the bits back on in the right places?  "Someone's just had there hand blown off", "quick heres a medi pack".  "My AA has run out of ammo", "oh its ok I have some in this lunchbox I carry".  The game is brilliant and Im glad it isnt perfect, but then neither Am I.

If I didnt enjoy my job I'd leave. If I didnt think I was enjoying the game I wouldnt complain and threaten to stop playing, I just wouldnt load the game up in the first place.

And no matter how good or bad you are I'll guarantee your not the best or the worst on this game either.
ComradeWho
Member
+50|6707|Southern California
I totally missed this guys post before.
Let me just clean up your lil rant here into the parts I want to focus on.

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

I'm gonna complain when I die because some faggot doesn't know how to shoot his damn bullets, hops around like kangaroo trying to reload his noobtube because he missed me the first time, and then somehow kills me after I unload a full clip of my Assault rifle, plus half a clip of the pistol!

And I'm also going to complain when I got one shotted after unloading a full clip into a mother fooker's back and he turns around and shoots me once and I die!

EA/DICE obviously figured out that there was SOMETHING wrong about the exploitation of the noobtube, C4throwing, and dolphin diving, because they're fixing it. And YES, that's exactly what it is, EXPLOITING A DEFECT IN THE GAME.

Lemme guess, next you're going to say that Glitching isn't cheating? it's the exact same thing, buddy. there's a crack in the map and people get into it and massacre. there's a screwup in the jumping/prone, grenade launcher, and C4, and people massacre with it.
First of all I think it's funny that the guy that manages to kill you is "some faggot" that doesn't "Know how to shoot his damn bullets." I would think that if he killed you he is pretty good at shooting. If you're mad because he didn't use bullets you're an idiot. If you're mad because he moved in a way that made him hard to hit you're an idiot. And if you think that the amount of ammo you fire at people makes any difference in your likelihood of killing them then i am sorry but you are wrong. A million poorly placed spray shots are just as bad as 30. Seems like you need to learn to shoot and a clear cut example of somebody that sucks trying to force the entire game and all of the players to change so that your sucky style of playing will be less sucky.
:
Don't get mad when people use the strenghts of their class (example: assault designed to be overpowering at close range - just understand that to die at the hands of assault at close range is the natural order of things)
Don't blame the other player for efficient movement when you can't place your shots well

Real gamers just adapt. Real gamers would realize "oh im a medic and i just got blown up but there are nade launcher guys on my team.. tanks on my team too.. and i guess there's no reason for me to spawn at spawn that was designed to be hard to defend." Real gamers mostly just play. Most other people play every few days and never come online to chat about it. Then a few people whine non-stop about how the game should be more suited to their thoughtless style of play. And after a while, since it's the only voice they really hear and since those people (people who clearly take the game as seriously as i do!) are the developer's "bread and butter," they have to cave in. I'm tired of games being ruined by the complaints of low quality gamers.


There's a difference between an exploit and using your weapon to it's maximum efficiency. You seem to think the two are in the same category! But perhaps your thinking on the use of weapons is more in line with the character that I created at the start of this post who thinks that "grenade launcher is ok.. just not if used too much" and "medics shouldnt heal themselves cus it's like they take a kill from you" and "snipers are cowards if they kill you from too far off and should use the pistol more" and "you should get penalized from killing people at spawn and taking flags cus how am i gonna get kills if i get killed?"

Never had a c4 hopper take me out without takin himself out, and most of the time i just take him out. I'll just bet that most of the other players with some skill can say the same thing. This is only a tactic that works on [u]really bad players[/i]. And anyways I don't see it that often. Really. This isn't some epidemic. Maybe you aren't playing in enough servers. I really don't see why you couldn't throw c4 in real life if it had a remote detonater but you people seem to be pretty sure that the human arm is incapable of throwing c4 at something.


by the way did you idiots that are so proud of the patch ever stop to think that all this whining to make em change it so you don't have to try as hard to win has made them focus on bullshit instead of adding more new features?

Last edited by ComradeWho (2006-01-26 04:45:53)

ozzi92
Member
+2|6717

Kamikaze17 wrote:

tF-voodoochild wrote:

I disagree with you that "there's no such thing as whoring" since if someone ONLY uses one specific gun or vehicle then they have clearly met the definition.
so you're saying that if i ran around with only a pistol then i would be a pistol whore and you would whine about me killing you?
lol good call
jonnykill
The Microwave Man
+235|6691

ozzi92 wrote:

Kamikaze17 wrote:

tF-voodoochild wrote:

I disagree with you that "there's no such thing as whoring" since if someone ONLY uses one specific gun or vehicle then they have clearly met the definition.
so you're saying that if i ran around with only a pistol then i would be a pistol whore and you would whine about me killing you?
lol good call
Yup . These pussies are dedicating precious game playing time to whine and complain how they get owned by this or that weapon . It's kind of like men with menstral cramps . When they bitch and complain about it they feel somewhat relieved . All these guys need a big ass box of Tampax next to thier PC so they can play better . Perhaps a bib would help with the drooling as well .
jonnykill
The Microwave Man
+235|6691

{HMS}_Sir_Del_Boy wrote:

jonnykill wrote:

I look at it this way . I believe the current engine of the game people spawn in order of rank . So naturally people who are good at flynig or being a tanker spawn at the points where they can snag what ever vehicle or aircraft that they are good at . Some people are tankers , some are pilots . They mastered their skill over the last few months and deserve to get a "better slot " . With this in mind the people who have lower rank spawn last and can't get into the tank or the jet lets say .These are the noobs who get frustrated and start shooting you up as you drive away or take off . This pisses off the vet who can rack up 100 points a level .Specially when he has about 30% of his armour chipped off by the friendly fire .  He will eventually die and respawn in front of 8 idiots waiting for the chopper . Every game , every level , every server fillled with people who, instead of going off and capping flags , wait for the chooper\tank and eventually die from artillery or jets looking for easy kills when these idiots are nicely clustered together - such a juicey target . As far as who's the whore here I would say the noob who really wants to fly and TK's the veteran pilot even though he has 4 hours of flying under his belt .
Example : I was on Daquil Oil Plant ( how ever you spell it ) and this is what happened . I was on the chineese side , i spawn at the airport to see if I could snag a chopper . I spawn and , not to my suprise , see like 8-9 guys waiting for the chopper . I was like WTF ? I check the radar and don't see we have a chopper . I know it's going to spawn any second now , gee I wonder whats going to happen next ? . I knew the chances of me getting the chopper were slim so I just observed the situation . I jumped into a jeep and just watched as 2 guys run past me to the chopper pad . I just knew it was the pilot and gunner who just died and respwned . They run into the crowd and position themsevles perfectly and snag the chopper as soon as it spawned . As soon as the rotors started spinning everyone shot the chopper up till it smoked . Then the chopper took off and now all these idiots are teamkilling each other after reloading thier weapons , and of course a medic is snagging points by healing\reviving them .  Luckily I got a chance to join the US team and did so . I spawned at a nearby flag ( the gas station ) and grabbed a quick buggy . I made my way to the Chineese airport . I get a view of all these idiots still waiting by the chopper pad . So I proceeded at full speed and ran over 4 of them in one pass . I swing around and run over another 1 , then a nother one . By this time I took a beating so I drove up onto the big hill at the far side of the aiport , made myself a squad and called for a sup drop . I got it just a second or two after I called for it and re-uped and headed off to run some more idiots over . I ran over 4 more and went back to heal up at sup drop . Then I did the same thing again racking up 5 more kills .In between these runs I took out the artillery in 2 passes - no engineer in sight .  Next thing you know the round is over and the score is 150-0 . No dout the whore award goes to the idiots who stood around to do nothing but get killed waiting for a chopper and killing teamates\health poaching .
And what is this crap about being a whore as some people call it when regaurding to a person who only use the grenade launcher ? This is obviously someone who is probably new to the game and needs to max this particular class out to unlock the next weapon . Or perhaps they are just really good at it and think they can do their team a good service by kicking some ass with a weapon they know how to use . Countless complaint threads have been made about this and that weapons ability and the people who "whore them " . Your not taking anything into consideration when they complain out getting killed by this and that weapon . I understand thier frustration , I've been killed by so many jets I wish they were removed from the game , but come one now - the "noob toob " ??? WTF??? I get killed with every weapon in the game by some people over and over . I got sniped by the same sniper 4 times in a row when I first started plaing on one level but I figured " damn , this guy is good I gotta take evasive action " . Never though of writing a complaint about someones ability to kill me though . I just don't get it .
Erm....have you ever heard of "paragraphs" m8? Try using them some time instead of trying to induce a flippin' headache.
What are papragraphs and why are you calling me m8 ? Lol it's been a while since I have written this much . As well as writing this after tossing back 8 rum and cokes . Hey theres that number 8 again - how weird .........
jonnykill
The Microwave Man
+235|6691
Oh I get it now . m8 as in "mate" , buddy , pal . Wow you smart .
Cbass
Kick His Ass!
+371|6706|Howell, Mi USA
yip
https://bf3s.com/sigs/bb53a522780eff5b30ba3252d44932cc2f5b8c4f.png
=[4th]=SlayThem
Destroy Noob Cannons
+96|6845

ComradeWho wrote:

I totally missed this guys post before.
Let me just clean up your lil rant here into the parts I want to focus on.

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

I'm gonna complain when I die because some faggot doesn't know how to shoot his damn bullets, hops around like kangaroo trying to reload his noobtube because he missed me the first time, and then somehow kills me after I unload a full clip of my Assault rifle, plus half a clip of the pistol!

And I'm also going to complain when I got one shotted after unloading a full clip into a mother fooker's back and he turns around and shoots me once and I die!

EA/DICE obviously figured out that there was SOMETHING wrong about the exploitation of the noobtube, C4throwing, and dolphin diving, because they're fixing it. And YES, that's exactly what it is, EXPLOITING A DEFECT IN THE GAME.

Lemme guess, next you're going to say that Glitching isn't cheating? it's the exact same thing, buddy. there's a crack in the map and people get into it and massacre. there's a screwup in the jumping/prone, grenade launcher, and C4, and people massacre with it.
First of all I think it's funny that the guy that manages to kill you is "some faggot" that doesn't "Know how to shoot his damn bullets." I would think that if he killed you he is pretty good at shooting. If you're mad because he didn't use bullets you're an idiot. If you're mad because he moved in a way that made him hard to hit you're an idiot. And if you think that the amount of ammo you fire at people makes any difference in your likelihood of killing them then i am sorry but you are wrong. A million poorly placed spray shots are just as bad as 30. Seems like you need to learn to shoot and a clear cut example of somebody that sucks trying to force the entire game and all of the players to change so that your sucky style of playing will be less sucky.
:
Don't get mad when people use the strenghts of their class (example: assault designed to be overpowering at close range - just understand that to die at the hands of assault at close range is the natural order of things)
Don't blame the other player for efficient movement when you can't place your shots well

Real gamers just adapt. Real gamers would realize "oh im a medic and i just got blown up but there are nade launcher guys on my team.. tanks on my team too.. and i guess there's no reason for me to spawn at spawn that was designed to be hard to defend." Real gamers mostly just play. Most other people play every few days and never come online to chat about it. Then a few people whine non-stop about how the game should be more suited to their thoughtless style of play. And after a while, since it's the only voice they really hear and since those people (people who clearly take the game as seriously as i do!) are the developer's "bread and butter," they have to cave in. I'm tired of games being ruined by the complaints of low quality gamers.


There's a difference between an exploit and using your weapon to it's maximum efficiency. You seem to think the two are in the same category! But perhaps your thinking on the use of weapons is more in line with the character that I created at the start of this post who thinks that "grenade launcher is ok.. just not if used too much" and "medics shouldnt heal themselves cus it's like they take a kill from you" and "snipers are cowards if they kill you from too far off and should use the pistol more" and "you should get penalized from killing people at spawn and taking flags cus how am i gonna get kills if i get killed?"

Never had a c4 hopper take me out without takin himself out, and most of the time i just take him out. I'll just bet that most of the other players with some skill can say the same thing. This is only a tactic that works on [u]really bad players[/i]. And anyways I don't see it that often. Really. This isn't some epidemic. Maybe you aren't playing in enough servers. I really don't see why you couldn't throw c4 in real life if it had a remote detonater but you people seem to be pretty sure that the human arm is incapable of throwing c4 at something.


by the way did you idiots that are so proud of the patch ever stop to think that all this whining to make em change it so you don't have to try as hard to win has made them focus on bullshit instead of adding more new features?
You must not have faced the bunnyhopping, noobtubing, c4throwing, BS that I have. It seems like I'm the only one that has ever seen these pieces of crap. Or maybe it's because you're spending too much time in your little sniping spots. I have no problem aiming, thank you. and the reason I get killed in fights like this, is because I choose not to exploit the bunnyhopping/c4throwing/noobtubing in this game. Sorry, but I'm not going to "adapt" to the faggotry in this game. And I'm not the only one that feels this way, I know that for sure. I was in a  server lastnight with a clan of c4throwing/dolphin diving/ noobtubers that can't kill with anything except those weapons. even their TEAMMATES were calling them fags for their cheap "tactics." And every time they tried to take me out with bullets, I'd own them. then they'd spawn back and c4 me from a mile away. Sadly, I know these guys because they left =[4th]= to go do this cheap crap. If you think the patch is goign to make it easier, think again. It's gonna take more skill to do things. especially infantry. no more dolphin diving, no more noob tubing 2 inches away, no more c4throwing, no more cheap crap. it's going to FINALLY be all about skill. And don't even say that dolphin diving, and c4throwing and noobtubing takes skill, because it doesn't. I tried it once and could do it, but like I said, I choose not to be cheap.

I believe in a fair game, if I see somebody come at me with a knife, I pull out my knife and fight to the death, and I laugh when I die, or we kill each other. because for ONCE it was fun and fair. And I'm really hoping that is the way it will be all the time when the patch comes out.

Oh, and maybe you misunderstood me when I said "I unloaded a full clip of my assaultrifle and half of my pistol" usually when that happens, I'm actually hitting him(I see the hit indicator) but he doesn't die.


Don't even bother replying to this, you won't be getting another reply from me. I don't care if you get the last word. It doesn't bother me. You have your opinion, I have mine. maybe if you faced some of these types of "real gamers" you'd have the same opinion as I do. Or perhaps you are one of those 1337 "real gamers" and that's why you don't want it to change. Either way, real skill will show up when the patch comes out, and all the lame "real gamers" will be all washed up and won't know what to do when they're faced with bullets in CQC.

Agree to Disagree I suppose.



I'll own anyone in any NES game. Bring it on.
shaga_delik
Member
+8|6678|Brighton, UK
No whores in BF2?  Shit this is WAR ya know.  Where is a soldier supposed to get his poontang at? :-)
nezff
Member
+0|6771
i a real war you cant tell the enemy not to bring a tank into your base or you cant tell a guy not to shoot that grenade launcher at you.  get some skills nubs and play the damn game.
=[4th]=SlayThem
Destroy Noob Cannons
+96|6845

nezff wrote:

i a real war you cant tell the enemy not to bring a tank into your base or you cant tell a guy not to shoot that grenade launcher at you.  get some skills nubs and play the damn game.
You know that's what is funny. On both sides of the argument, there is a "in a real war..." but the side that defends the noob tubing and crap always say (along side of the "in a real war...") "this is a game, not real life."
ComradeWho
Member
+50|6707|Southern California
DUDE. DO you GET IT?
the grenade launcher is the strongest close range weapon. It's not a matter of "not using anything else".
It's a matter of "Why would you use anything but the strongest weapon in your arsenal?"
The whole point of the assault class is to be undefeatable at close range except by other assault troops.

Use your head!

If you looked at my stats that you would have seen that I've spent just as much time not sniping as sniping.
And if you've ever played in a server with me you'd know I snipe from the front line, playing an assault style, and pushing people back. I encounter people with nade launchers and when I see someone JUMP at me I JUMP as well.

Like I said
If you play the game you recongize uniforms, and then you act accordingly.
If you understand the game you don't whine when the class that is designed to destroy opposition at close range destroys you at close range if you are it's opposition.
And if you know how to shoot, people can never bunny hop close enough to plant c4 and retreat to safety to detonate it.. AND IF THEY DO - what the hell were you doing standing close to the pack all that time?


PS: There is no goddamned flaw in the game that makes it so if you shoot somebody in air they don't die or it takes more shots.
I've gotten head shots on parachuters, I've gotten headshots on bunny hoppers, I've gotten head shots on people in jeeps - from all elevations and distances. And I've killed them with all weapons. I've never thought "Wow that took more bullets than normal!" except for the fact that when they move they're slightly harder to hit.

Last edited by ComradeWho (2006-01-27 14:19:19)

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