Uzique wrote:
I'm not here to vouch for the UN and celebrate the organisation, nor to talk about how fair and amazing it is. My point still stands that if America have no intention to play by the same UN jurisdiction as everyone else, then you should quite simply leave. If some small rogue-state acted the same way, they'd be booted out in no time.
Lowing wrote:
I never said Israel was formed out of defensive action. I said it is always on the defense as a nation. They were attacked the day after they became a nation.
Well, how does that change my argument? They're the exact same thing. Israel aren't 'on the defense' as a nation- and even when they do come under attack it all stems back to the initial aggressive act, i.e. they were the aggressors (to use the term that you applied initially). There's a clear chain of continuity and causation between Israel's formation and the violence suffered unto its people nowadays; in my opinion they deserve everything they get- the biggest (failed) geopolitical experiment of our time.
Well he is right that from the minute it was declared a state, they were under siege.
And the conditions under which it was formed were due in part to european persecution of jews, and the British gov't favored the idea:
During World War I, the British sought Jewish support in the fight against Germany. This and support for Zionism from Prime-Minister Lloyd-George[10] led to foreign minister, Lord Balfour making the Balfour Declaration of 1917, stating that the British Government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"..."it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".
The British invasion force, led by General Allenby, included a force of Jewish volunteers (mostly Zionists), known as the Jewish Legion.[11]
wiki link With the backdrop of the holocaust, and pogroms in europe, one could say the formation of Israel
was kind of defensive in nature; it was formed in large part by refugees seeking a homeland where they could (presumably) escape persecution.
As for the UN
In September 1947 the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended partition in Palestine, a suggestion ratified by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947.[21] The result envisaged the creation of two states, one Arab and one Jewish, with the city of Jerusalem to be under the direct administration of the United Nations.
The General Assembly resolution required Britain to allow unrestricted Jewish migration into a port on the coast, however Britain refused to implement the resolution and continued to incarcerate Jewish migrants in Cyprus.
wiki link So no, it wasn't exactly created by a jewish "invading army" who forcibly took the land.
And to say they 'deserve everything they get' and act as if they are just permanently in the wrong and that their entire existence is an affront to the region is a bit out there, there were complicated events that led to it, and Europe and Britain both bear some responsibility for this "failed experiment".
Last edited by Vax (2008-11-29 11:06:02)
