No, the US broke the treaty, now its the Russians turn to retaliate.SealXo wrote:
Are they just being the usual assholes?
Fuck Israel
Getting worried over nothing there is too much to lose for both parties. No one dares to throw the first stone. No point having a war when there probably won't be anything left to fight over.
They're just doing the exact same thing America are doing. I'm not happy about either missile system... why can't you guys just 'fight' each other over the North Pole instead of in my backyard?SealXo wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE4A46T820081105?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10112
So it looks like today our good ol' Russian comrades decided to launch missiles around, and now they're planting new defense systems around. Interesting they wait until the day after the election to do this eh? Are they just being the usual assholes? Or do you think they are the "international crisis" Biden is hoping for?
YES!Braddock wrote:
They're just doing the exact same thing America are doing. I'm not happy about either missile system... why can't you guys just 'fight' each other over the North Pole instead of in my backyard?SealXo wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE4A46T820081105?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10112
So it looks like today our good ol' Russian comrades decided to launch missiles around, and now they're planting new defense systems around. Interesting they wait until the day after the election to do this eh? Are they just being the usual assholes? Or do you think they are the "international crisis" Biden is hoping for?
and YES!CameronPoe wrote:
Move military installations near Russia, they'll move military installations near you. Not unexpected or surprising in the least.
I was to tired to reply yesterday. Commie you still don't see how playing missiles facing Russia is provocative? Czech Republic leader is pro American and only he and some other government officials want radars there, inhabitants of the Republic do not want to have the installations!
Russia never intended to put missiles there only after you put them there they are doing it too. So you clearly provoked them. You're to blind to see whats going on in Europe cos of your stupid actions.
I fully realize the Czech population isn't thrilled with it. That's the Czech government's problem, though..Sup wrote:
Oh gawd FEOS I thought you knew more about this. Chechz republic's population doesn't want missiles as they don't do any good for them. THey are intended to be the first wave of defense for USA. You say your implacements are defensive, Russians say they are offensive. See whats going on here?FEOS wrote:
That's ludicrous and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of those systems. Russia is moving a purely offensive missiles into the area in response to a purely defensive capability. And that purely defensive capability can't do anything about Russian missiles launched at the US. It only shoots down missiles heading for Europe..Sup wrote:
USA started this. Russians planting missile defence systems is just an answer to your missile placements in Poland and radar implacements in Chechz Republic. Clean under your doorsteps first.
Russia just doesn't like the fact that the kids decided they didn't want to visit daddy any more after getting cigars put out on their backs for decades.
They can just get the fuck over it.
Whether they would do any good for the Czech population entirely depends on whether the Czech population would ever have a MRBM launched at them.
Russia says they're offensive because it gives them a convenient excuse to flex their old, flabby muscles. I never said it was a good idea politically...only that it's not offensive by any stretch of the definition.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Obviously it is offensive to Russia since they have never considered placing missiles in Europe till now. Is it a coincidence then?FEOS wrote:
I fully realize the Czech population isn't thrilled with it. That's the Czech government's problem, though..Sup wrote:
Oh gawd FEOS I thought you knew more about this. Chechz republic's population doesn't want missiles as they don't do any good for them. THey are intended to be the first wave of defense for USA. You say your implacements are defensive, Russians say they are offensive. See whats going on here?FEOS wrote:
That's ludicrous and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of those systems. Russia is moving a purely offensive missiles into the area in response to a purely defensive capability. And that purely defensive capability can't do anything about Russian missiles launched at the US. It only shoots down missiles heading for Europe.
Russia just doesn't like the fact that the kids decided they didn't want to visit daddy any more after getting cigars put out on their backs for decades.
They can just get the fuck over it.
Whether they would do any good for the Czech population entirely depends on whether the Czech population would ever have a MRBM launched at them.
Russia says they're offensive because it gives them a convenient excuse to flex their old, flabby muscles. I never said it was a good idea politically...only that it's not offensive by any stretch of the definition.
.Sup has done a poor job of explaining why it is provocative, but it certainly is. Why? Because it fucks up MAD. If the US can protect itself and it's allies from Russian missiles and Russia can't protect itself against US missiles, there is an imbalance in a very delicate system that is clearly extremely provocative to the Russians.Commie Killer wrote:
Commie Killer wrote:
But seriously, this whole throwing insults back and forth is boring. I wanna know how this thing is provocative in your opinion.
The fact that it is a defensive system is beside the point, because on the other side of the equation you have the most devastating weapons ever created.
If you want an imperfect analogy, it's a bit like a water gun fight which is at a stalemate because neither of the two people with water guns want to get wet. Then one of them goes off and gets a raincoat so they are much better protected against getting wet and goes back and sprays the other one with water with impunity.
This is essentially what Russia is afraid of/pissed off about.
Have Russia been given a full breakdown of the US missile system with complete access to the blueprints and an offer of complete access and oversight to the installation of the system when it gets built? Because if I was Russia that would be the very least that I would expect and I still wouldn't be thrilled about it.FEOS wrote:
I fully realize the Czech population isn't thrilled with it. That's the Czech government's problem, though..Sup wrote:
Oh gawd FEOS I thought you knew more about this. Chechz republic's population doesn't want missiles as they don't do any good for them. THey are intended to be the first wave of defense for USA. You say your implacements are defensive, Russians say they are offensive. See whats going on here?FEOS wrote:
That's ludicrous and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of those systems. Russia is moving a purely offensive missiles into the area in response to a purely defensive capability. And that purely defensive capability can't do anything about Russian missiles launched at the US. It only shoots down missiles heading for Europe.
Russia just doesn't like the fact that the kids decided they didn't want to visit daddy any more after getting cigars put out on their backs for decades.
They can just get the fuck over it.
Whether they would do any good for the Czech population entirely depends on whether the Czech population would ever have a MRBM launched at them.
Russia says they're offensive because it gives them a convenient excuse to flex their old, flabby muscles. I never said it was a good idea politically...only that it's not offensive by any stretch of the definition.
Let's face it FEOS, the US are installing missiles on the periphery of Russia... the rest, as far as Russia are concerned, is mere details. I'd like to see the US be so accommodating if Russia put a missile system in Mexico to prevent against attacks from rogue South American nations.
As I remember it the US got a bit twitchy when the Russians installed missiles off the US coast, why is no-one surprised the Russians are pissed off?
Fuck Israel
The whole idea of Nuclear weapons is the threat to use them in retaliation, to stop the other guy using them. Mutually assured destruction.
The US missile defense system takes away that whole principal. Russia has been nervous ever since plans were released to build one.
The US missile defense system takes away that whole principal. Russia has been nervous ever since plans were released to build one.
Because apparently this time it's different... this is a defensive missile system, not an offensive one! You see?Dilbert_X wrote:
As I remember it the US got a bit twitchy when the Russians installed missiles off the US coast, why is no-one surprised the Russians are pissed off?
Last edited by Braddock (2008-11-06 03:24:09)
Thats what USA says anyway. When they are looking away from US its defensive, when the missiles are looking towards them, they are called "offensive missiles" and must be removed.Braddock wrote:
Because apparently this time it's different... this is a defensive missile system, not an offensive one! You see?Dilbert_X wrote:
As I remember it the US got a bit twitchy when the Russians installed missiles off the US coast, why is no-one surprised the Russians are pissed off?
@Bertster I blame my English
Except invoking MAD all missile systems are defensive, or offensive, or oh I don't know.Because apparently this time it's different... this is a defensive missile system, not an offensive one! You see?
However you look at it both sides are behaving like chest-beating toddlers and should just pack their toys away.
Fuck Israel
Yes, that's exactly what they should doDilbert_X wrote:
... and should just pack their toys away.
The last time we had active, practical ABM measures (thus discounting star wars) on the table we were in the middle of the biggest arms race the world had ever seen. (the 60's)
Something to bear in mind.
Something to bear in mind.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Yep Spark is right. USA places a missile, Russia places a bigger missile, USA places a radar, Russia places two radars.....Spark wrote:
The last time we had active, practical ABM measures (thus discounting star wars) on the table we were in the middle of the biggest arms race the world had ever seen. (the 60's)
Something to bear in mind.
It's not that. It's because both countries' nuclear strategies are so beholden to MAD doctrine. That and the fact that the only real counter-ABM strategy is to 'saturate' the target with missiles - fire so many the ABM systems just can't cope.
That being said, ABM systems are very easy to decoy. So although you might fire a thousand missiles at a target, only 10 might be nukes.
It's a complicated thing, ABM strategy.
That being said, ABM systems are very easy to decoy. So although you might fire a thousand missiles at a target, only 10 might be nukes.
It's a complicated thing, ABM strategy.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Even simplerYep Spark is right. USA places a missile, Russia places a bigger missile, USA places a radar, Russia places two radars.....
US places a missile - Russia places two
US places ABM system - Russia places enough missiles to swamp it
US places a radar - Russia places enough missiles to swamp it too.
Then we have an arms race and go bankrupt protecting ourselves from people bankrupting themsleves defending themselves from us.
I think I'll have a beer.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-11-06 04:04:35)
Fuck Israel
That's why the US basically gave up on ABM a long time ago. Not because of the treaty, but because it was better to have no defense than an impotent but provocative one.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Why doesn't anyone listen to meeee!!!
American missiles gooood! Protect way of life! Only defensive!
Russian missiles baaaad! Only bring communism and death!
American missiles gooood! Protect way of life! Only defensive!
Russian missiles baaaad! Only bring communism and death!
ƒ³
I should have used sarcasm tags! It's a missile system... are Russia supposed to just trust America regarding how it will be used? Come on people.Dilbert_X wrote:
Except invoking MAD all missile systems are defensive, or offensive, or oh I don't know.Because apparently this time it's different... this is a defensive missile system, not an offensive one! You see?
However you look at it both sides are behaving like chest-beating toddlers and should just pack their toys away.
that defense shield in poland is just that, a defensive shield.
when poland wanted a missile defense shield in their country they got it, america is just there delivering the goods.
russia responds with an offensive missile base.
sigh. Oh and if russia wanted to attack the US they wouldn't have to fire their missiles through europe.
and europe is too divided / busy with their own stuff to ever start a war with russia.
when poland wanted a missile defense shield in their country they got it, america is just there delivering the goods.
russia responds with an offensive missile base.
sigh. Oh and if russia wanted to attack the US they wouldn't have to fire their missiles through europe.
and europe is too divided / busy with their own stuff to ever start a war with russia.
inane little opines
you are the only one who made sense in this last page. well done sir. and FEOS.dayarath wrote:
that defense shield in poland is just that, a defensive shield.
when poland wanted a missile defense shield in their country they got it, america is just there delivering the goods.
russia responds with an offensive missile base.
sigh. Oh and if russia wanted to attack the US they wouldn't have to fire their missiles through europe.
and europe is too divided / busy with their own stuff to ever start a war with russia.
Last edited by usmarine (2008-11-06 04:25:55)
a missile defense shield means just that, shooting missiles out of the air..Sup wrote:
Obviously it is offensive to Russia since they have never considered placing missiles in Europe till now. Is it a coincidence then?
unless russia was planning to throw nukes into europe there's not much to worry about, not to mention that they could disable that missile system in a matter of seconds if they really wanted to, it poses no threat whatsoever.
and geez, in this thread it appears poland is part of the US now, it's their shield ffs
inane little opines
Well duh. You didn't read this post did you?dayarath wrote:
that defense shield in poland is just that, a defensive shield.
when poland wanted a missile defense shield in their country they got it, america is just there delivering the goods.
russia responds with an offensive missile base.
sigh. Oh and if russia wanted to attack the US they wouldn't have to fire their missiles through europe.
and europe is too divided / busy with their own stuff to ever start a war with russia.
It was always really, really obvious this would happen which is why the project has faced such widespread criticism.Dilbert_X wrote:
US places a missile - Russia places two
US places ABM system - Russia places enough missiles to swamp it
US places a radar - Russia places enough missiles to swamp it too.
Then we have an arms race and go bankrupt protecting ourselves from people bankrupting themsleves defending themselves from us.
I think I'll have a beer.
Whether the missiles are defensive or not is utterly irrelevant. The point is that they fuck up the whole purpose of MAD. Russia will act to ensure they can overcome any countermeasures put in place, and they are right to do so.