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usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Uzique wrote:

Not being funny or anything, but people calling the foul-sources cry are hardly going to be convinced by a list of health-links from health insurance companies and all-American institutions.
those are govt studies.  well fine, they can go thru life learning things thru slanted documentaries.  christ people already follow youtube shit as the bible.
Vax
Member
+42|4937|Flyover country

Dilbert_X wrote:

Neo-cons like to ridicule Michael Moore because what he does exposes their agenda.
No, intelligent people hate Moore because his propaganda movies are taken as truth in other parts of the world, witness Freke1's posting here

Dilbert_X wrote:

Don't understand why the Republicans are so rabidly opposed to basic healthcare TBH.

PS Don't even think about travelling to the US without cast-iron insurance, I'd take a few litres of blood too.
LOL at the rest of that, yes republicans HATE health care...and if you come here and get in an accident, better have some insurance or we leave ya bleeding on the side of the road.
Freke1
I play at night... mostly
+47|5632|the best galaxy
Sicko premiered on May 19, 2007 at the 2007 Cannes Film Festival, receiving a 15-minute standing ovation from 2,000 people at the Grand Theatre Lumiere.

The film was nominated for an Academy Award for Documentary Feature. Sicko was commended in the Australian Film Critics Association 2007 Film Award for Best Documentary.

"I'm not a big supporter of copyright laws in this country…I don't understand bands or filmmakers…who oppose sharing, hav[ing] their work being shared by people, because it only increases your fanbase."

The guy even likes piracy, what's there not to like?
https://bf3s.com/sigs/7d11696e2ffd4edeff06466095e98b0fab37462c.png
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Freke1 wrote:

what's there not to like?
he owned stock in haliburton for starters.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Freke1 wrote:

Sicko premiered on May 19, 2007 at the 2007 Cannes Film Festival, receiving a 15-minute standing ovation from 2,000 people at the Grand Theatre Lumiere.
ya what a shock.  out of touch rich celebs applauding false info.  lol
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

SgtHeihn wrote:

Freke1 wrote:

Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
You are going to try and say a Micheal Moore movie give good points? HE MAKES HIS FACTS UP!
Not exactly...  He just mostly promotes half-truths.

For example, Moore was correct in that healthcare is socialized in Cuba.  What he didn't mention is that the WHO ranks them below us as a system.  Also, Canada is ranked higher than us, but only by a little bit.

The strongest parts of Sicko involved how he showed how good France's system is (ranked #1 by the WHO) and how we're willing to subsidize the healthcare of suspected terrorists in Gitmo but don't do nearly as much for our own law-abiding citizens.
mikkel
Member
+383|5686

Freke1 wrote:

Sicko premiered on May 19, 2007 at the 2007 Cannes Film Festival, receiving a 15-minute standing ovation from 2,000 people at the Grand Theatre Lumiere.

The film was nominated for an Academy Award for Documentary Feature. Sicko was commended in the Australian Film Critics Association 2007 Film Award for Best Documentary.
So the fact that a bunch of people applauded something that the vast majority of them likely had zero insight into is a zeal of quality to you? Jesus.

Let me guess, when a bunch of Americans support things they know nothing about, they're idiots, but when a bunch of people support something critical of the US that they know nothing about, they're just fine?
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Turquoise wrote:

how we're willing to subsidize the healthcare of suspected terrorists in Gitmo but don't do nearly as much for our own law-abiding citizens.
thats the rules dear.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

mikkel wrote:

Let me guess, when a bunch of Americans support things they know nothing about, they're idiots, but when a bunch of people support something critical of the US that they know nothing about, they're just fine?
yup.  and that also shows people in aussie are apparently sheep since he won that award there.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

DrunkFace wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Freke1 wrote:

Cubans live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate.

I think all americans should watch "Sicko" at least 10 times until they get it.
Remember high school and university education is also free here in Europe.

"Sicko" really nails my thoughts perfectly.

Remember if You US citizens get sick and don't have insurence - GO TO CUBA

The good people of US deserve better than what is shown in Sicko FFS.
You are going to try and say a Micheal Moore movie give good points? HE MAKES HIS FACTS UP!
IMR
United States     6.30
Cuba     5.93
United Kingdom     4.93
European Union     5.84
Australia     4.51
Life expectancy:
United States     78.06
Cuba     75.08
United Kingdom     78.7
European Union     78.7
Australia     80.62

Hmmm he got one right...

Well at least we can all agree AU>UK>EU>US

Spoiler (highlight to read):
And our health system is shocking
More like...  US>UK>EU>AU

Although, you could put Norway ahead of us...
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|5555

usmarine wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Not being funny or anything, but people calling the foul-sources cry are hardly going to be convinced by a list of health-links from health insurance companies and all-American institutions.
those are govt studies.  well fine, they can go thru life learning things thru slanted documentaries.  christ people already follow youtube shit as the bible.
No, I agree.

My point is that skepticism can be used pretty irrationally by both sides. I'm some there are laughable points in Moore's documentary making but I don't think everything he spouts is false and misconstrued... the presentation of European healthcare in Sicko was pretty on the mark as I said before- I didn't find anything to disagree with it. Arguing against the source rather than the actual content can be extended back to the 'defense' links that Kmarion posted, one could say the US government and their studies may not be entirely impartial or resolute in attempting to find solutions/improvements to the profit-driven medical sector etc.etc...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

how we're willing to subsidize the healthcare of suspected terrorists in Gitmo but don't do nearly as much for our own law-abiding citizens.
thats the rules dear.
Pretty crazy if you ask me...
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

how we're willing to subsidize the healthcare of suspected terrorists in Gitmo but don't do nearly as much for our own law-abiding citizens.
thats the rules dear.
Pretty crazy if you ask me...
yes but even the infidels get medical treatment when we are captured.  although its pointless since they are just going to take your head off, but still.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:


thats the rules dear.
Pretty crazy if you ask me...
yes but even the infidels get medical treatment when we are captured.  although its pointless since they are just going to take your head off, but still.
*shrugs*  I just don't understand how a country that is willing to spend $700 billion at Wall Street and even more than that at privatized healthcare is so against socialized care.

Most of the reasons for why we pay so much for healthcare involve inflated pharmaceutical costs, corporate bureaucracy, lawsuits, and illegal immigrants.

All we need to do is to start government negotiations with pharmaceutical companies, socialize the bureaucracy side of things, implement tort reform, and come up with a viable illegal immigrant solution.  I know none of that is easy, but surely, it's better than just continuing down this same dysfunctional road.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

my friend pays 4 bucks for a 30 day prescrip (generic).  that aint bad if you ask me.  people pay more for one pack of smokes.

Last edited by usmarine (2009-01-03 13:04:12)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

my friend pays 4 bucks for a 30 day prescrip (generic).  that aint bad if you ask me.  people pay more for one pack of smokes.
If the prescription he had didn't have a generic version, he'd pay a lot more.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

my friend pays 4 bucks for a 30 day prescrip (generic).  that aint bad if you ask me.  people pay more for one pack of smokes.
If the prescription he had didn't have a generic version, he'd pay a lot more.
well with our plan, he would pay 10 bucks for a 30 day suppply instead of 4.  so two packs of smokes.  or some chipotle.  again, not bad.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

my friend pays 4 bucks for a 30 day prescrip (generic).  that aint bad if you ask me.  people pay more for one pack of smokes.
If the prescription he had didn't have a generic version, he'd pay a lot more.
well with our plan, he would pay 10 bucks for a 30 day suppply instead of 4.  so two packs of smokes.  or some chipotle.  again, not bad.
Right, but again, if you're dependent on a new medication without a generic, then you pay a shitload more.

Also, company plans keep healthcare costs more reasonable than individual plans, but because companies are generally more responsible for providing care in the form of some sort of benefits plan as opposed to the government providing it, it makes payroll costs higher per person in America than in many other countries.

One of the most extreme examples involves GM.  A lot of the reason why they are having trouble staying profitable is because of the big benefits plans they provide.  Nowadays, there's a push for companies to either minimize benefits or minimize permanent hiring.  Either way, this leaves most Americans holding the bag when it comes to medical costs.

Socialization would moderate this effect much better than leaving it up to the private sector.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-01-03 13:23:01)

SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|5572|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Pretty crazy if you ask me...
yes but even the infidels get medical treatment when we are captured.  although its pointless since they are just going to take your head off, but still.
*shrugs*  I just don't understand how a country that is willing to spend $700 billion at Wall Street and even more than that at privatized healthcare is so against socialized care.

Most of the reasons for why we pay so much for healthcare involve inflated pharmaceutical costs, corporate bureaucracy, lawsuits, and illegal immigrants.

All we need to do is to start government negotiations with pharmaceutical companies, socialize the bureaucracy side of things, implement tort reform, and come up with a viable illegal immigrant solution.  I know none of that is easy, but surely, it's better than just continuing down this same dysfunctional road.
Who do you think is spending a shit load of money on re-election campaigns and giving comps like its cool.

For those who don't know:
Spoiler (highlight to read):
Health Insurance Companies!!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

SgtHeihn wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:


yes but even the infidels get medical treatment when we are captured.  although its pointless since they are just going to take your head off, but still.
*shrugs*  I just don't understand how a country that is willing to spend $700 billion at Wall Street and even more than that at privatized healthcare is so against socialized care.

Most of the reasons for why we pay so much for healthcare involve inflated pharmaceutical costs, corporate bureaucracy, lawsuits, and illegal immigrants.

All we need to do is to start government negotiations with pharmaceutical companies, socialize the bureaucracy side of things, implement tort reform, and come up with a viable illegal immigrant solution.  I know none of that is easy, but surely, it's better than just continuing down this same dysfunctional road.
Who do you think is spending a shit load of money on re-election campaigns and giving comps like its cool.

For those who don't know:
Spoiler (highlight to read):
Health Insurance Companies!!
Absolutely.  HMOs are pretty powerful as far as lobbyists go.  So are pharmaceutical companies.  Right now, I think Hillary Clinton is the 2nd biggest recipient of pharmaceutical lobbyist funds.

She went from being a major advocate of socialized healthcare to being a huge lobbyist recipient.

It's quite clear that corporations have bought the system.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|5572|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Turquoise wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


*shrugs*  I just don't understand how a country that is willing to spend $700 billion at Wall Street and even more than that at privatized healthcare is so against socialized care.

Most of the reasons for why we pay so much for healthcare involve inflated pharmaceutical costs, corporate bureaucracy, lawsuits, and illegal immigrants.

All we need to do is to start government negotiations with pharmaceutical companies, socialize the bureaucracy side of things, implement tort reform, and come up with a viable illegal immigrant solution.  I know none of that is easy, but surely, it's better than just continuing down this same dysfunctional road.
Who do you think is spending a shit load of money on re-election campaigns and giving comps like its cool.

For those who don't know:
Spoiler (highlight to read):
Health Insurance Companies!!
Absolutely.  HMOs are pretty powerful as far as lobbyists go.  So are pharmaceutical companies.  Right now, I think Hillary Clinton is the 2nd biggest recipient of pharmaceutical lobbyist funds.

She went from being a major advocate of socialized healthcare to being a huge lobbyist recipient.

It's quite clear that corporations have bought the system.
Gotta love it, get the Government to stomp out any of your competition. Nothing like controling the ones who control the rules.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|5555

SgtHeihn wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:


Who do you think is spending a shit load of money on re-election campaigns and giving comps like its cool.

For those who don't know:
Spoiler (highlight to read):
Health Insurance Companies!!
Absolutely.  HMOs are pretty powerful as far as lobbyists go.  So are pharmaceutical companies.  Right now, I think Hillary Clinton is the 2nd biggest recipient of pharmaceutical lobbyist funds.

She went from being a major advocate of socialized healthcare to being a huge lobbyist recipient.

It's quite clear that corporations have bought the system.
Gotta love it, get the Government to stomp out any of your competition. Nothing like controling the ones who control the rules.
I guess not all of Michael Moore's work is bad then, eh?

.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5490|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Absolutely.  HMOs are pretty powerful as far as lobbyists go.  So are pharmaceutical companies.  Right now, I think Hillary Clinton is the 2nd biggest recipient of pharmaceutical lobbyist funds.

She went from being a major advocate of socialized healthcare to being a huge lobbyist recipient.

It's quite clear that corporations have bought the system.
Gotta love it, get the Government to stomp out any of your competition. Nothing like controling the ones who control the rules.
I guess not all of Michael Moore's work is bad then, eh?

.
Indeed...  Hillary's conflicts of interest were pointed out quite well by Moore in Sicko.

It's not that Moore is a bad person or even crazy.  He's just very slanted.

I agree with a lot of Moore's views, but I think he leans too far in the socialist direction.  The only reason why I even support socialized healthcare is because of how we have to compete with other countries that have it.  In the long run, it makes more sense to socialize healthcare if all of your major trading partners and competitors for skilled labor have.  Otherwise, healthcare becomes too much of a burden to your own companies in the form of benefits plans.

It's ironic, but it's basically a matter of competition that apparently many free market types don't understand.
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|4787|College Park, MD
I'm not reading through all this topic because I only have 17 minutes of battery life left on this laptop and the nearest plug is just a bit too far away for the power cable to reach from the outlet to the laptop where I'm sitting.

US healthcare is great if you've got insurance. Otherwise, good luck.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5846

Turquoise wrote:

Right, but again, if you're dependent on a new medication without a generic, then you pay a shitload more.
no no no.  our plan is ten bucks per prescrip unless the cost is less than ten obviously.

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