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Poll

Mandated Military, is it better than a volunteer military?

Yes16%16% - 11
No83%83% - 54
Total: 65
2008-10-19 08:43:06
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6775

usmarine wrote:

Uzique wrote:

not everyone subscribes to the old-fashioned view that military discipline and physical fitness is worth more than a career in the pursuit of wealth.
what does that have to do with serving 2 or 4 years in the military?  i dont get your arguement at all.
It means not every country and its people are "better off" by mandating a military service, viz. the qualities and skills gained in 2/4 years of military service are not necessarily the ultimate defining characteristics of an able-bodied and 'achieving' individual.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2008-10-19 08:44:51
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6648|tropical regions of london
concscription wouldnt work with the US military model.  It costs a lot of money to invest in the training and the equipping of a single soldier.  Its not an investment worth pursuing with someone who only plans on serving 2 years.
2008-10-19 08:45:01
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7067

Uzique wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Uzique wrote:

not everyone subscribes to the old-fashioned view that military discipline and physical fitness is worth more than a career in the pursuit of wealth.
what does that have to do with serving 2 or 4 years in the military?  i dont get your arguement at all.
It means not every country and its people are "better off" by mandating a military service, viz. the qualities and skills gained in 2/4 years of military service are not necessarily the ultimate defining characteristics of an able-bodied and 'achieving' individual.
no that is not what you are saying imo.  i read that sentence i quoted as condescending at best.  you make it sound like people who join the military cannot pursue a career or wealth.
2008-10-19 08:45:05
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6847|Outer Space

.Sup wrote:

We have a pro army. We don't really need an army but I did wanted to go in the army for a year, just to experience it.
What's stopping you? But if your posts here are any indication, you may have some trouble passing the psych tests.
2008-10-19 08:46:06
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6678|Kyiv, Ukraine

usmarine wrote:

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Israel has a mostly conscripted army
i would too if i was surrounded by people who wanted to exterminate my country.

edit:  iran, germany, finland, turkey, russia, etc is conscript also.  i think your statement might be incorrect.
Yes, but their militaries generally suck.  I wouldn't let a Russian conscript polish my socks.

Israel on the other hand has made pretty good use of conscription troops to supplement a small professional core.  As well, without military service, you are pretty much a nobody in Israel.  Straight to the bottom of the resume pile, entrance vetting for higher ed. programs, politics, government jobs off limits, etc.  Can't say if its really right or wrong, it does seem to help turn shit-head teenagers into responsible early-20-somethings,
2008-10-19 08:46:25
Mint Sauce
Frighteningly average
+780|6591|eng

Uzique wrote:

Mint Sauce wrote:

usmarine wrote:

it sure helps along the process.  i mean sitting around taking a few classes during the week about mostly usueless shit is good also i suppose.
I'd rather take those classes, get a good degree and have a £100,000+ a year job than risk being blown the fuck up in search of being a 'man' and then do fuck all afterwards.
Lemme know where those graduate employers are please, haha...

My friend graduated with a 1:1 in Law from Oxford and is now doing his practical legal training for one of the best law firms in London City, and indeed in the United Kingdom- Allen & Overy. I don't think he's even dreaming of a £100k salary yet, not at least for another 20 years or so until he is appointed a judge .

But I do understand and share his view. Is 'success' and fulfillment thesedays still measured using the machismo bullshit of past centuries? I thought ever since the Western world turned mercantile and capitalist, a man's measure was his wealth? In my opinion the military should be voluntary, not everyone subscribes to the old-fashioned view that military discipline and physical fitness is worth more than a career in the pursuit of wealth.
I'm not talking about just out of university.. It takes you years to get anywhere close to decent pay in the Army, rather work my way up in the workplace than spend those years being shot at.

And marine, i'm not making or engaging in an arguement, rich family has little to do with it.

Last edited by Mint Sauce (2008-10-19 08:47:35)

#rekt
2008-10-19 08:46:55
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6860
I think it should be mandatory. Everybody who is capable should/must pitch in with respect to defence of their country.
2008-10-19 08:48:07
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6678|Kyiv, Ukraine

God Save the Queen wrote:

concscription wouldnt work with the US military model.  It costs a lot of money to invest in the training and the equipping of a single soldier.  Its not an investment worth pursuing with someone who only plans on serving 2 years.
Don't most combat arms jobs come with 2 year contract minimums, or was that only before our Long War?
2008-10-19 08:48:08
Mint Sauce
Frighteningly average
+780|6591|eng

CameronPoe wrote:

I think it should be mandatory. Everybody who is capable should/must pitch in with respect to defence of their country.
Tbph, I don't agree.
#rekt
2008-10-19 08:51:38
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6648|tropical regions of london

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

concscription wouldnt work with the US military model.  It costs a lot of money to invest in the training and the equipping of a single soldier.  Its not an investment worth pursuing with someone who only plans on serving 2 years.
Don't most combat arms jobs come with 2 year contract minimums, or was that only before our Long War?
not including training, and that hasnt always been the case.  say you enlist for 2 years, youll end up doing 3 plus depending on your MOS.  But, shit changes.
2008-10-19 08:55:57
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6926|London, England
National Service only works if your country isn't run by war mongering douchebags. Conscripts seem to suck at the actual fighting and there's also alot of other problems of sending people to fight, who didn't even make that choice of joining up themselves.

Now if we were like Norway or something (like someone else said here) then it would be good. As everyone wouldn't be a dickhead if everyone had some sort of national service. But as things stand, we need to keep the military professional.
2008-10-19 08:58:57
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6648|tropical regions of london
Dick Cheney had 5 draft defferments
2008-10-19 09:16:22
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

Mint Sauce wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Mint Sauce wrote:


I'd rather take those classes, get a good degree and have a £100,000+ a year job than risk being blown the fuck up in search of being a 'man' and then do fuck all afterwards.
Lemme know where those graduate employers are please, haha...

My friend graduated with a 1:1 in Law from Oxford and is now doing his practical legal training for one of the best law firms in London City, and indeed in the United Kingdom- Allen & Overy. I don't think he's even dreaming of a £100k salary yet, not at least for another 20 years or so until he is appointed a judge .

But I do understand and share his view. Is 'success' and fulfillment thesedays still measured using the machismo bullshit of past centuries? I thought ever since the Western world turned mercantile and capitalist, a man's measure was his wealth? In my opinion the military should be voluntary, not everyone subscribes to the old-fashioned view that military discipline and physical fitness is worth more than a career in the pursuit of wealth.
I'm not talking about just out of university.. It takes you years to get anywhere close to decent pay in the Army, rather work my way up in the workplace than spend those years being shot at.

And marine, i'm not making or engaging in an arguement, rich family has little to do with it.
Actually fresh outta school with food/drink/living space/transport costs all subsidised the average line infantry private is earning and keeping a lot more money than a Fresh outta college student. Not to mention the 2 pay rises a year, promotion, bonuses for operations and skills pay...

I'll be on a higher band and will be getting "jump" pay, and extra £2000 a year compared to line infantry. Way more than a civvy could hope for faxing spreadsheets.
2008-10-19 09:22:55
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6926|London, England
The military/army =/= front line infantry. There's more to it than that. You can go in and come out with some damn good qualifications if you take certain paths. Plus there's the added bonus of actually being in the military and having that extra discipline/fitness and being much more rounded.

Although if you are going in, and then just doing infantry and then coming back out, yeah, you're not going to get much... but there's plenty of opportunities in there to do more than that.
2008-10-19 09:38:08
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7067

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Yes, but their militaries generally suck.  I wouldn't let a Russian conscript polish my socks.
what about china?  they have an interesting conscript.  everyone is subject to service, but the govt picks and chooses who.  kind of like a fantasy footabll draft.
2008-10-19 09:47:25
Switch
Knee Deep In Clunge
+489|6768|Tyne & Wear, England
In the case of the UK, what would stop us having a 'proper' voluntary army, like we do now.  And then a separate territorial army for conscripts to do national service.  This way you still get the benefits of an efficient fighting force whilst having the social perks that a conscript army has.

I'm sure national service would sharp sort out all of the fucking wasters and chavs out there.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
2008-10-19 09:56:21
mikkel
Member
+383|6906

usmarine wrote:

Uzique wrote:

usmarine wrote:

what does that have to do with serving 2 or 4 years in the military?  i dont get your arguement at all.
It means not every country and its people are "better off" by mandating a military service, viz. the qualities and skills gained in 2/4 years of military service are not necessarily the ultimate defining characteristics of an able-bodied and 'achieving' individual.
no that is not what you are saying imo.  i read that sentence i quoted as condescending at best.  you make it sound like people who join the military cannot pursue a career or wealth.
Then you're looking for a conflict, because that's not at all what he's saying. If you twist your own words the same way, you'll arrive at the opposite extreme.

usmarine wrote:

Mint Sauce wrote:

usmarine wrote:


it sure helps along the process.  i mean sitting around taking a few classes during the week about mostly usueless shit is good also i suppose.
I'd rather take those classes, get a good degree and have a £100,000+ a year job than risk being blown the fuck up in search of being a 'man' and then do fuck all afterwards.
ive done both.  so until some of you do both, your opinion is useless.
Great concept. Let's also only allow murderers to weigh in on deciding the scope of punishment for murder. Your opinion on something isn't invalid simply because you haven't experienced it yourself.

Last edited by mikkel (2008-10-19 09:59:23)

2008-10-19 10:01:03
jord
Member
+2,382|6983|The North, beyond the wall.

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

The military/army =/= front line infantry. There's more to it than that. You can go in and come out with some damn good qualifications if you take certain paths. Plus there's the added bonus of actually being in the military and having that extra discipline/fitness and being much more rounded.

Although if you are going in, and then just doing infantry and then coming back out, yeah, you're not going to get much... but there's plenty of opportunities in there to do more than that.
You can get free quals in the Infantry, a recruiting Corporal I know has got like 2 A levels and he was in local infantry reg.

Though they don't really interest me. Rather do my 8 years and go contractor or bodyguard.
2008-10-19 10:12:45
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7067

mikkel wrote:

Your opinion on something isn't invalid simply because you haven't experienced it yourself.
yes it is.

murder.....lol.  jesus
2008-10-19 10:31:58
mikkel
Member
+383|6906

usmarine wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Your opinion on something isn't invalid simply because you haven't experienced it yourself.
yes it is.

murder.....lol.  jesus
Jesus what? It's the same principle. You're a very opinionated person, and you've displayed opinions about things you've never experienced yourself in the past. Are we to assume that you consider what you say yourself to be complete bullshit?
2008-10-19 11:26:16
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7067

mikkel wrote:

usmarine wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Your opinion on something isn't invalid simply because you haven't experienced it yourself.
yes it is.

murder.....lol.  jesus
Jesus what? It's the same principle. You're a very opinionated person, and you've displayed opinions about things you've never experienced yourself in the past. Are we to assume that you consider what you say yourself to be complete bullshit?
i have a right to my opinion, does not mean it is correct.  i still fail to see what your probelm is.
2008-10-19 11:43:34
The_Guardsman
Tally Ho!!
+81|7050|I'm not sure.... Buts its dark
Depends on the country. The British Forces did'nt do to badly with National service and the such. Alot of National Service men did WW2, Suez crisis, Malaysian, Cyprus to mention a few and they worked well. Maybe it was down to a different generation as l doubt you'd get the same from the majority of todays people.
A country that did'nt do to well with National service was Argentina. The Falklands war was abig indicator of a well dug in force being defeated due to bad morale, poor training and the such. Also the difference in class between the officers and senior NCOS were massive. (At the end of the war the officers were aloud to keep there own pistols for self defence...against there own men)!

I'm sort of for National service, l think it might bring back some respect and discipline in todays youth.. However having served in the forces and also in Her Majesty's Prison service and seen some of the dribbling ear chasing loons that have come through (the ones that should be clearing minefields in flip flops and shorts) I would not in a million years trust them next to me with a loaded rifle. In fact l would'nt trust half of them with an empty biro!!!

Last edited by The_Guardsman (2008-10-19 12:02:22)

2008-10-19 11:57:52
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6824|Πάϊ
Around here military service is mandatory. If I'm not mistaken atm it lasts 16 months, but the objective is to reduce that time gradually until it is made entirely voluntary - though I doubt this will ever happen. They tried making it 12 months but there were shortages everywhere.

Anyway, the army sucks balls. And that's not just my opinion either. I guess if we had the manpower to make it voluntary the conditions would be a lot better. Also, shoving shit for money is better than doing it for free I guess...
ƒ³
2008-10-19 14:00:06
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6716|'Murka

Depends on what the measure of "better" is, so I voted no.

Is it better for a military to be conscription-based? Absolutely not. Professional, all-volunteer military has proven superior, even when outnumbered.

Is it better for a society to have many of its citizens with the experience of having served? I think so.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-10-19 16:21:20
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7073
I would not have minded doing a year in the army when i was 18. I probably would have stayed in.

My mates in South Africa did that a while back when they had national service. its described as the best and worst year of your life.

It would put a strain in the economy...you have to pay these soldiers as well.

 

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