BF2S Forums What next for Iraq?

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

pretty sure its in the constitution.  Its what justified this countries first deployment.  Its what started the war of 1812

I don't really care whether it's constitutional or not - it's plain wrong.

It's not in the constitution. The threat has to be be clear and present (immediate). The Iraq war Authorization of military force was neither. Why do you think there was such a push to sell WMD's and their delivery systems?

We will never know the extent of their WMD program. Most of the stuff vanished into the desert, just  like billions in gold bullion.

The saddest fact of all this is the assumption the Iraqis would embrace democracy like a western nation. Almost every country in the ME has or is ruled by a dictator of some form or another. It took 10 plus years for democracy to evolve and develop in the US. They don't know what it is, like throwing a 10yr old in a college level class.

Braddock wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Braddock wrote:

One can tapdance around the WMD/nuclear weapon issue all day but at the end of the day while ye lot were out looking under rocks in the desert for weapons Kim Jong Il was building himself an actual nuclear weapon, so in terms of a domestic defence exercise Iraq was a bit of a failure. There's also no real reason to believe that Saddam wouldn't have followed Kim's example of using his nukes as a bargaining chip to lift sanctions against his country. He had his ass handed to him in the first Gulf war, why would he do the same thing again... he wasn't totally stupid.

Even more to the point.. while Pakistan was developing Nuclear weapons and selling them on the black market.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=58582

I watched that documentary, it was very interesting... now who can argue against the idea that smashing that black market itself would have been a far greater achievement in consolidating domestic security than any reckless invasion of a country who may or may not have availed of said market's services?

And why are the US so casual about AQ khan being able to chillax in his pad in Pakistan after what he has done during his career? Not that they have any right to complain given that they allowed their old pals Israel to do the same thing he did.

It was a great documentary.

SgtHeihn wrote:

We will never know the extent of their WMD program. Most of the stuff vanished into the desert, just  like billions in gold bullion.

The saddest fact of all this is the assumption the Iraqis would embrace democracy like a western nation. Almost every country in the ME has or is ruled by a dictator of some form or another. It took 10 plus years for democracy to evolve and develop in the US. They don't know what it is, like throwing a 10yr old in a college level class.

That's the problem with imperialism and coercion - it rarely works. The occupied generally unify against the occupier with seething resentment, sometimes hidden, sometimes expressed in anger or violence - irrespective of whether they believe the stated intentions of the occupier. Democracy comes from within not from without. Condensing centuries of natural political development into a botched war and a couple of years of 'surge' was a ludicrous idea. Anyone associating with the occupying force can be denounced as a servile enemy of the nation - not exactly fertile ground for a functioning democracy. Even Donald Rumsfeld realised back in 91 that invading Iraq would be a mistake. How do you sticky plaster three creeds/ethnicities together into one nation after decades of suppressed tensions? The examples of Germany and Japan just do not hold in this example as both were righteously utterly vanquished and realised their leaderships had ruined them.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-10-20 10:22:46)

maybe the same reason why he didnt launch a single air sorty to defend against the invasion?

CameronPoe wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Why he didn't, only Saddam knows.

That, quite frankly, is almost as ludicrous a rebuttal as the 9/11 inside job conspiracy theory. A hardened dictator who unflinchingly sent thousands to their doom not using all weapons at his disposal on those hell bent on the destruction of his regime? Please...

but he didnt cam.  he grounded his entire airforce.  he put more emphasis on the feyadeen saddam than than the actual military, even the republic guard.


the feyadeen saddam's main tactics were running around on mopeds with grenades and rpg's


cam the reason he didnt do a lot of things the right way when defendding a nation is because he thought he would be able to run iraq still after the invasion.  he planned for an insurgency.  thats why he ran.

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-10-20 10:33:01)

thats why he grounded his airforce rather than see it decimated, he planned on still having an airforce when the mess got settled

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-10-20 10:36:42)

That doesn't make any logical sense. Airforces and chemical warhead bearing missiles are not the kinds of things that an insurgency can make use of. An airforce is certainly the first thing a strong conventional armed opponent will decimate/seize almost instantly too.

Plus: the entire world had already witnessed Halabja so him 'playing it clean' just doesn't make any sense either.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-10-20 10:42:39)

CameronPoe wrote:

That doesn't make any logical sense. Airforces and chemical warhead bearing missiles are not the kinds of things that an insurgency can make use of.

makes perfect sense.  he never planned on a conventional defense at all.  why use your airforce to see it get destroyed when you plan on rebuilding your country when the americans leave?
its a solid fact.  the iraqi airforce was grounded.

could you come up with a better reason why he didnt use his airforce?

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-10-20 10:46:35)

He spent months upon months in a shitty little hole in the ground without calling for the firing of these phantom chemical weapons? I ain't buying it.

CameronPoe wrote:

He spent months upon months in a shitty little hole in the ground without calling for the firing of these phantom chemical weapons? I ain't buying it.

It's a crock of shit... and even if it were true it would only serve to prove that Saddam was not actually the gung-ho psycho that Bush, Rumsfeld and all the other cronies tried to say he was.

CameronPoe wrote:

He spent months upon months in a shitty little hole in the ground without calling for the firing of these phantom chemical weapons? I ain't buying it.

He didn't want to destroy his county, he needed something to rule when he came outta that hole.

SgtHeihn wrote:

Braddock wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

They say that he thought the international community would condemn the US invasion causing it to stop. Use of chemical weapons would have unified the everyone behind the US therefore justifying the invasion. Even while he was in prison, he thought the Iraqi people were going to rise up and free him and put him back in power.

So what you're saying is he turned out to be a leader capable of showing restraint in terms of his weapons use?

Hmmmm... didn't you invade because he couldn't be trusted on this issue? I mean this is a man who supposedly wanted to attack you within 45 minutes notice and it turns out he wouldn't even use his dirty weapons while you're invading and destroying his country.

It wasn't restraint, he planned to embroil us in a war of Insurgency. Oh and I didn't invade, I was a Combat Instructor at that time. I was out drinking, so I missed GWB's phone call asking for my advice on what to do.

It fucking-well-was restraint... I would have cracked and succumbed to the temptation to fire my dirty missiles after about a week down in that hole.

The guy must have great will power.

Braddock wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Braddock wrote:

So what you're saying is he turned out to be a leader capable of showing restraint in terms of his weapons use?

Hmmmm... didn't you invade because he couldn't be trusted on this issue? I mean this is a man who supposedly wanted to attack you within 45 minutes notice and it turns out he wouldn't even use his dirty weapons while you're invading and destroying his country.

It wasn't restraint, he planned to embroil us in a war of Insurgency. Oh and I didn't invade, I was a Combat Instructor at that time. I was out drinking, so I missed GWB's phone call asking for my advice on what to do.

It fucking-well-was restraint... I would have cracked and succumbed to the temptation to fire my dirty missiles after about a week down in that hole.

The guy must have great will power.

He was waiting for the great jihad. you can't dirty bomb the population that you need to fight for you.