BF2S Forums Republican version of socialism vs. the Democrat one.

mikeyb118 wrote:

lowing wrote:

mikeyb118 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock, we were not in the ME on 911.

What?

Jesus Christ! I was referring to the "invasion".

Well the point still stands that stationed troops are and were a projection of power and influence be it against Iran, Saddam Hussein or anybody else in the ME. Yet when China starts stationing troops in central African states as peacekeepers everybody cries fowl. You still don’t see the hypocrisy?

We were guests of Saudi, we did not force our presence on them.

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

lowing wrote:

Try reading the Constituion of the United States, in it , you will find all of our rights and freedoms that Islam does not adhere to.

I've even named my two kids after guys that wrote it

That's exactly where I'm confused though.  The right-wing has done the most absurdly un-constitutional things in the last 8 years in power.  Torture, invasion of privacy without cause or warrant, "free speech zones", Supreme court deciding elections, partisan use of executive power and privelege, "the Cheney Branch", voter disenfranchising, purely executive war-making power, military tribunals in civilian cases without due process...

Go back to St. Ronnie's constitutional overthrow in the name of the War on Drugs.  At least when Nixon did it, he knew he was breaking the law and doing the wrong thing.  The current crop of assholes actually thinks this is all their god-given right.

So which rights and freedoms does Islam not adhere that the Christian right or corporate right or neocon doctrine adhere to?

Newsflash, just because the media likes to go for profit and headlines over national security does not mean torturing prisoners is only 8 years old in America.

My privacy has not been invaded, I have no problem with our govt. avoiding all the bullshit when terror attacks are being planned yet made the decision they can not stop it because they didn't get a warrant in time. Again more sensationalism. The Supreme Court did not "decide the election". Democrts could not admit that they lost and refused to be told as much, so they bounced the Republican victory all the way up to the Supreme Court who gave them the final get fucked, you lost, mushroom stamp to the forehead....on and on and on....your post is opinion more than it is fact.


So again, the Constitution basically outlines everything we hold as rights and freedoms, and there is not much there that Islam celebrates.

Last edited by lowing (2008-10-08 18:59:02)

lowing wrote:

Newsflash, just because the media likes to go for profit and headlines over national security does not mean torturing prisoners is only 8 years old in America.

My privacy has not been invaded, I have no problem with our govt. avoiding all the bullshit when terror attacks are being planned yet made the decision they can not stop it because they didn't get a warrant in time. Again more sensationalism. The Supreme Court did not "decide the election". Democrts could not admit that they lost and refused to be told as much, so they bounced the Republican victory all the way up to the Supreme Court who gave them the final get fucked, you lost, mushroom stamp to the forehead....on and on and on....your post is opinion more than it is fact.

So again, the Constitution basically outlines everything we hold as rights and freedoms, and there is not much there that Islam celebrates.

So I'm supposed to accept very real trashing of fundamental constitutional rights in exchange for protection from a potential and statistically extremely improbable threat?

Cool!

Chance of Muslim take-over of the USA and imposition of Sharia Law with our justice system as it stood 8 years ago - 0.00000003%
(you figure out a plausible reality-based scenario where this could happen...I can't, and I get paid to think up shit like that)

Chane of me (or you) being on the terrorism watch-list, harrassed, having privacy rights violated, and banned from travel at this very moment - 1.2% and growing (3 million American citizens on watch list and database right now).  This % jumps significantly if you have a passport and are over the age of 18.

By the way, how do you know your privacy hasn't been invaded?  Under the Constitution that you claim to love, you needed to be told eventually when this happened.  There needs to be a record somewhere with checks and balances (judiciary writ).  That is no longer the case.  They can open the books on you, interrogate everyone around you and put them under gag order, and close the books without any public record of them ever doing this.  KGB FTW!  You will NEVER know for sure, you will always be under suspicion, and if you think you aren't because you're on the side of public service...think again how tenuous that protection is.  Via PATRIOT act 1 and 2, the US government has every right to completely shit on you and turn your life upside down, in violation of the spirit and writing of the Constitution, and then slink off without so much as an apology (or record of them doing so) if they're wrong.

And dude, don't tell me about torturing prisoners.  I was an interrogator.  The new policies represent a complete 180 from our training and principles that we learned back in the 90's.  The Bush approved "torture memos" are not only completely illegal in the human rights/Geneva sense, they're also ludicrously ineffective for gaining real live intel and PUT OUR COUNTRY AND SOLDIERS AT RISK.  Rail-roading/burning a few low-level soldiers when they get caught doing it was also one of the bigger miscarriages of justice I've seen.  Yes, that SGT and PFC were a couple of sadistic little fucks, but they got approval and orders directly from the top to carry out these things.

You're right, the CIA had a lot of fun with those concepts during the 50's through 70's...their conclusion?  Torture doesn't work!  Certain drugs mixed with psychotherapy techniques, yes, torture, not so much.  Why would the Army teach us this in 1997 if it wasn't true?  Very curious to see if they still hold this line, or if the history of interrogation techniques block of instruction has been replaced.

I really hope its over soon.

Obama at least opens that possibility.  McCain would close that door for good.

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

lowing wrote:

Newsflash, just because the media likes to go for profit and headlines over national security does not mean torturing prisoners is only 8 years old in America.

My privacy has not been invaded, I have no problem with our govt. avoiding all the bullshit when terror attacks are being planned yet made the decision they can not stop it because they didn't get a warrant in time. Again more sensationalism. The Supreme Court did not "decide the election". Democrts could not admit that they lost and refused to be told as much, so they bounced the Republican victory all the way up to the Supreme Court who gave them the final get fucked, you lost, mushroom stamp to the forehead....on and on and on....your post is opinion more than it is fact.

So again, the Constitution basically outlines everything we hold as rights and freedoms, and there is not much there that Islam celebrates.

So I'm supposed to accept very real trashing of fundamental constitutional rights in exchange for protection from a potential and statistically extremely improbable threat?

Cool!

Chance of Muslim take-over of the USA and imposition of Sharia Law with our justice system as it stood 8 years ago - 0.00000003%
(you figure out a plausible reality-based scenario where this could happen...I can't, and I get paid to think up shit like that)

Chane of me (or you) being on the terrorism watch-list, harrassed, having privacy rights violated, and banned from travel at this very moment - 1.2% and growing (3 million American citizens on watch list and database right now).  This % jumps significantly if you have a passport and are over the age of 18.

By the way, how do you know your privacy hasn't been invaded?  Under the Constitution that you claim to love, you needed to be told eventually when this happened.  There needs to be a record somewhere with checks and balances (judiciary writ).  That is no longer the case.  They can open the books on you, interrogate everyone around you and put them under gag order, and close the books without any public record of them ever doing this.  KGB FTW!  You will NEVER know for sure, you will always be under suspicion, and if you think you aren't because you're on the side of public service...think again how tenuous that protection is.  Via PATRIOT act 1 and 2, the US government has every right to completely shit on you and turn your life upside down, in violation of the spirit and writing of the Constitution, and then slink off without so much as an apology (or record of them doing so) if they're wrong.

And dude, don't tell me about torturing prisoners.  I was an interrogator.  The new policies represent a complete 180 from our training and principles that we learned back in the 90's.  The Bush approved "torture memos" are not only completely illegal in the human rights/Geneva sense, they're also ludicrously ineffective for gaining real live intel and PUT OUR COUNTRY AND SOLDIERS AT RISK.  Rail-roading/burning a few low-level soldiers when they get caught doing it was also one of the bigger miscarriages of justice I've seen.  Yes, that SGT and PFC were a couple of sadistic little fucks, but they got approval and orders directly from the top to carry out these things.

You're right, the CIA had a lot of fun with those concepts during the 50's through 70's...their conclusion?  Torture doesn't work!  Certain drugs mixed with psychotherapy techniques, yes, torture, not so much.  Why would the Army teach us this in 1997 if it wasn't true?  Very curious to see if they still hold this line, or if the history of interrogation techniques block of instruction has been replaced.

I really hope its over soon.

Obama at least opens that possibility.  McCain would close that door for good.

Ummmmmmm we were attacked all through the 90's, and up to and including 911. What do you me improbable? Not even mentioning all of attacks that have been stopped before they happened. I know you would be on here spouting off about how Bush's anti-terror measures were ineffective IF we had been attacked again, but since we have not, you have nothing t osay about them. Fine. I guess Bush can not get credit for something that HAS NOT happened.

If your privacy has been violated for reasons other than suspicions of terror IE, for enjoyment and a good laugh, then laws have been broken. Anyway, in such a case, agents could have done this very thing long before anf legislation was passed condoning eavesdropping in on suspected terrorist.

Great, I love how a burlap bag over someones head is torture, please compare that to sawing off a head with a dull knife. You might have sympathy for them I however do not give a shit if someone had to pose for a picture in their underwear.

McCain opposes torture that is one of the reasons why the right had a problem with him during the election of presidential nominee candidates.

Warhammer wrote:

McCain opposes torture that is one of the reasons why the right had a problem with him during the election of presidential nominee candidates.

I think he's talking about something else though.

It's been quiet (usm and GStQ got the stick too)