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Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6184|San Francisco
So far, Bush has been caught red-handed breaking the law.  He claims that he can basically illegally wiretap Americans and invade their privacy as it is a "time of war."  Albeit he never had a formal Declaration of War approved from the Congress.  'Shock and Awe' lasted just long enough that he didn't have to present his Articles of War, and the resulting firefight in Iraq is still going on.

Hopefully the Impeachment process will start soon, but only if enough Republicans in the House will allow a call for it to pass.

My question to everyone is:

If the Republicans/Bush Administration think they can get away with anything now due to the US being at "war," what will happen if a Democrat gets elected in 2008?  Will they all back down and say, "Oh, no no no, we were wrong, we weren't supposed to do all of that as it was illegal at the time...so it looks like you Democrats can't do the same!"  Does anyone feel like there is something more sinister going on to ensure that Republicans can force another election to come out in favor of them?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6165|Canberra, AUS
Could you please expand on that? I'm not sure what you mean...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6184|San Francisco
I'll ask a different question, actually...nevermind about my first one.

Well, due to the uncovering of the Abramoff scandal, Tom DeLay's money laundering scheme, Bush's wiretapping, the Bush Administration lying about the evidence they had drawn up against Iraq, and then invading/going against the UN...there have been a lot of plots to ensure their control over America.

Bush is defending his wiretapping ability and all of these "above the law" actions because we are in "a time of War."  When and if a Democrat comes into office in 2008, will the entangled agendas and corruption of the outgoing office and the incoming administration possibly spark a civil rift in the US? 
You can already see the rift in these forums; the Invasion of Iraq has gotten extremely partisan, and peoples' opinions have been getting more and more extreme about it.  What do you foresee happening to America if a Democrat gets elected in 2008?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6165|Canberra, AUS
I'm not sure, I'm not American :S
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6327
I believe everyone gets their day in court untill then its just acusations. " you can indite a ham sandwhich ".
If a dem wins in 2008? I cant imaging who would run for either party at this point. Both sides need to clean house. I would really like to see some New Blood in the Race. If they do win in 2008 all I can see is the usuall banners they fly but never implement.
In truth I have no idea. I know you do, lol just tell us what you think.  you know this post will take off.
it bears watching.
Home
Section.80
+447|6338|Seattle, Washington, USA

I think more than one thing can happen.

1) Republican gets elected, nothing happens. Corruption continues.
2) Democrat gets elected, nothing happens. Corruption continues. (While I think this has a better chance of happening with a Republican, it could still happen with a Democrat.)
3) Democrat gets elected, everyone admits they're wrong, but the Democrat does not get to be above the law like Bush was.
shspunkrockr
Member
+0|6243
Republican gets elected: terrorist attacks in the US increase due to an overcompassionate political party that can't get their fucking facts straight . . . and the war in Iraq is a right one. People only focus on Bush "Oh, Saddam never harmed us" yes he fucking did. People don't look at Saddams past. He murdered his predicessor to get into power. Started countless wars. Killed millions of his own people by carelessly throwing WMDs at the Iranians . . . I could go on for days.
shspunkrockr
Member
+0|6243

shspunkrockr wrote:

Republican gets elected: terrorist attacks in the US increase due to an overcompassionate political party that can't get their fucking facts straight . . . and the war in Iraq is a right one. People only focus on Bush "Oh, Saddam never harmed us" yes he fucking did. People don't look at Saddams past. He murdered his predicessor to get into power. Started countless wars. Killed millions of his own people by carelessly throwing WMDs at the Iranians . . . I could go on for days.
I meant Democrat at the beginning . . . my bad.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6165|Canberra, AUS
I've got a question: Why, oh why, do you run a Two-Party System???? In Australia we have the unique situation where the 'balance-of-power' (so to speak) is not in the hands of the two major parties.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6327

Spark wrote:

I've got a question: Why, oh why, do you run a Two-Party System???? In Australia we have the unique situation where the 'balance-of-power' (so to speak) is not in the hands of the two major parties.
Good question, next question is how to get it of the ground. as of now a third party only acts as a spoiler.
allowing some one to slip in.

Perot comes to mind, Goldwater. works better in local elections.
spacebandit72
Dead Meat
+121|6220|Michigan
To be honest, all the forementioned "scandals" have lead nowhere. (not that I think all Reps are innocent of any wrong doing).
Go ahead and wire tap... I could'nt imagine what I'd do if my wife or 1yr old daughter were killed by terrorists. We have to do something rather than pick our noses and wait to be murdered.
Besides, i have nothing to hide. And while on the wiretap thing, this same kind of wiretap bill was used by Nixon during the Watergate scandal... Oh, and to all you Dems out there that say Reps are racists... Do the homework. JFK used this same kind of wiretap to listen to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and tried to get evidance of his being a commy and other things. I'd rather wiretap suspected people of terrorism then someone for a racist reason.
As for Bush lying bout weapons... Everyone, yes everyone believed that Iraq had wmd's. And if you don't thinjk Seria or Iran did'nt recieve what Sadam was hiding... you gotta be stupid. They all hate America and want us dead... period.
As for the UN. They suck. We have all been warned as children not to do certain things. If we did it anyway, we got spanked. Same w/ Sadam. Over 12 sanctions against him. We should ignore someone ignoring international law? That's bull.
At last... If a Dem gets in office... They will probably follow suit and see the Iraq thing through but sell the idea that "they" are doing better than bush.
Or, they will give in to the Susan Sarandin types out there and pull out of Iraq and more people will die. The terrorists will have a safehaven, and eventually attack us with somekind of WMD.
Whoever is elected... Dem, or Rep... they are all crooked in my opinion.
I think we should stop the spending in America! Our Senitors spend our tax money crappy. I don't want to pay for a trout farm in Texas that I will never see.
Lastly, the money thing... Look at clinton in his little scandal. Just for parking alone at the courthouse= $350.00 a car... We payed for that. I know it's not that much but, I'm just sick of the way our poor people are treated and the reps are blamed for it. They are all guilty.
Sorry for being so long.
-(F^S)-Fatty
Member
+3|6215
im a fucking Tax payer i wanna see an ICBM go off....
Agwood69
Member
+0|6254|West Coast

-(F^S)-Fatty wrote:

im a fucking Tax payer i wanna see an ICBM go off....
LOL...
acurasquirrel
Member
+0|6175
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." Thomas Jefferson

In my opinion if you are being wiretapped its for a reason, the government isnt going to wiretap so two bit drug dealer.  They are going after the terrorists who have and will kill American citizens without remorse.  Therefore the liberties given up by the wiretaps are necessary to protect the equal rights of the rest of the USA citizens.  This also goes for racial profiling, which I am for.  Im sorry but if you dont have anything to hide what do you have to worry about?
shspunkrockr
Member
+0|6243

spacebandit72 wrote:

To be honest, all the forementioned "scandals" have lead nowhere. (not that I think all Reps are innocent of any wrong doing).
Go ahead and wire tap... I could'nt imagine what I'd do if my wife or 1yr old daughter were killed by terrorists. We have to do something rather than pick our noses and wait to be murdered.
Besides, i have nothing to hide. And while on the wiretap thing, this same kind of wiretap bill was used by Nixon during the Watergate scandal... Oh, and to all you Dems out there that say Reps are racists... Do the homework. JFK used this same kind of wiretap to listen to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and tried to get evidance of his being a commy and other things. I'd rather wiretap suspected people of terrorism then someone for a racist reason.
As for Bush lying bout weapons... Everyone, yes everyone believed that Iraq had wmd's. And if you don't thinjk Seria or Iran did'nt recieve what Sadam was hiding... you gotta be stupid. They all hate America and want us dead... period.
As for the UN. They suck. We have all been warned as children not to do certain things. If we did it anyway, we got spanked. Same w/ Sadam. Over 12 sanctions against him. We should ignore someone ignoring international law? That's bull.
At last... If a Dem gets in office... They will probably follow suit and see the Iraq thing through but sell the idea that "they" are doing better than bush.
Or, they will give in to the Susan Sarandin types out there and pull out of Iraq and more people will die. The terrorists will have a safehaven, and eventually attack us with somekind of WMD.
Whoever is elected... Dem, or Rep... they are all crooked in my opinion.
I think we should stop the spending in America! Our Senitors spend our tax money crappy. I don't want to pay for a trout farm in Texas that I will never see.
Lastly, the money thing... Look at clinton in his little scandal. Just for parking alone at the courthouse= $350.00 a car... We payed for that. I know it's not that much but, I'm just sick of the way our poor people are treated and the reps are blamed for it. They are all guilty.
Sorry for being so long.
Fucking thank you . . . I have nothing to hide, and anyone who does is a criminal. Would we rather A: Evade a few people's rights to privacy for the national security of the US or B: risk another 9-11 or something worse . . . We can't be leniant with the terrorists, because they will take advantage of it. At least the Republicans are acting on their intelligence rather than staring at it until a terrorist attack happens then saying "Oh, shit, we should have read the signs before this happened and done something." . . . and with this war and almost every other war we have been involved in, America was fighting for the very rights that you and me are yousing right now. The right to speak your mind. If we all lived in a country with a regime simular to Saddams, Marconius would probably be called a spy and executed for critisizing his government. That's all I have to say, and sorry if I insulted anyone.
spacebandit72
Dead Meat
+121|6220|Michigan

acurasquirrel wrote:

Im sorry but if you dont have anything to hide what do you have to worry about?
Agreed.
Rathji
Member
+1|6173

Marconius wrote:

He claims that he can basically illegally wiretap Americans and invade their privacy as it is a "time of war."
I am not American so I may be way off, but I thought the Patriot act that was passed after 9/11 allows them to do this? If that is the case, then it hardly seems illegal, even if you don't agree with the law.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6327

spacebandit72 wrote:

To be honest, all the forementioned "scandals" have lead nowhere. (not that I think all Reps are innocent of any wrong doing).
Go ahead and wire tap... I could'nt imagine what I'd do if my wife or 1yr old daughter were killed by terrorists. We have to do something rather than pick our noses and wait to be murdered.
Besides, i have nothing to hide. And while on the wiretap thing, this same kind of wiretap bill was used by Nixon during the Watergate scandal... Oh, and to all you Dems out there that say Reps are racists... Do the homework. JFK used this same kind of wiretap to listen to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and tried to get evidance of his being a commy and other things. I'd rather wiretap suspected people of terrorism then someone for a racist reason.
As for Bush lying bout weapons... Everyone, yes everyone believed that Iraq had wmd's. And if you don't thinjk Seria or Iran did'nt recieve what Sadam was hiding... you gotta be stupid. They all hate America and want us dead... period.
As for the UN. They suck. We have all been warned as children not to do certain things. If we did it anyway, we got spanked. Same w/ Sadam. Over 12 sanctions against him. We should ignore someone ignoring international law? That's bull.
At last... If a Dem gets in office... They will probably follow suit and see the Iraq thing through but sell the idea that "they" are doing better than bush.
Or, they will give in to the Susan Sarandin types out there and pull out of Iraq and more people will die. The terrorists will have a safehaven, and eventually attack us with somekind of WMD.
Whoever is elected... Dem, or Rep... they are all crooked in my opinion.
I think we should stop the spending in America! Our Senitors spend our tax money crappy. I don't want to pay for a trout farm in Texas that I will never see.
Lastly, the money thing... Look at clinton in his little scandal. Just for parking alone at the courthouse= $350.00 a car... We payed for that. I know it's not that much but, I'm just sick of the way our poor people are treated and the reps are blamed for it. They are all guilty.
Sorry for being so long.
You got it, Anyone can yell Rape, Damage is done to image and reputaion weather you can prove it never happend. Most of the Shrill wailing types can only remember the Juicy  headlines.

However, I feel  ( someone ) is in for alot of disapointment in the years to come.

You may find  " some " opinions are considerd Facts here and dissent is not tolerated by the " party of compasion " Prepare to be attacked.
Home
Section.80
+447|6338|Seattle, Washington, USA

As to the whole wire-tapping thing... I personally don't have much of a problem with it because I, also, have nothing to hide. The problem is legally. If you are going to have your whole government based on certain documents and rights, you can't go violating these rights. That's the problem I have with it. Like Bush is above the very laws that are the basis of our country and government.
Ziggy_79x
Member
+4|6175
It's not gonna matter weather it's a democrat or republican president in office, there is still going to be widespread and rampant corruption just like there always has been. If we continue to let the lobbyists do their thing, paying congress for votes, and continue electing people that are in it for the money at the bottom line then nothing is gonna change. Politics suck and I don't claim to be the most knowledgeable person in these forums or anywhere but I do know that greed is going to be the downfall of capitalism and the human race in general.
spacebandit72
Dead Meat
+121|6220|Michigan

Rathji wrote:

Marconius wrote:

He claims that he can basically illegally wiretap Americans and invade their privacy as it is a "time of war."
I am not American so I may be way off, but I thought the Patriot act that was passed after 9/11 allows them to do this? If that is the case, then it hardly seems illegal, even if you don't agree with the law.
You are correct. Nobody could impeach Bush even if they wanted to. They have no case.
It saddens me that people forget the 3000+ people that died. They were Moms, Dads, Bros, and sisters.
Political gains is all they think about.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6327

Marconius wrote:

So far, Bush has been caught red-handed breaking the law.  He claims that he can basically illegally wiretap Americans and invade their privacy as it is a "time of war."  Albeit he never had a formal Declaration of War approved from the Congress.  'Shock and Awe' lasted just long enough that he didn't have to present his Articles of War, and the resulting firefight in Iraq is still going on.

Hopefully the Impeachment process will start soon, but only if enough Republicans in the House will allow a call for it to pass.

My question to everyone is:

If the Republicans/Bush Administration think they can get away with anything now due to the US being at "war," what will happen if a Democrat gets elected in 2008?  Will they all back down and say, "Oh, no no no, we were wrong, we weren't supposed to do all of that as it was illegal at the time...so it looks like you Democrats can't do the same!"  Does anyone feel like there is something more sinister going on to ensure that Republicans can force another election to come out in favor of them?
The dems enjoy the total support of the media so what they do or do not is ussually of little consequence to the average citizen. So far I think only one President was ever Impeached? Am I not correct? It will bear watching I wouldn't hold my breath, nor bet the out house on it if I had one. Have at it though and enjoy.
shspunkrockr
Member
+0|6243

spacebandit72 wrote:

Rathji wrote:

Marconius wrote:

He claims that he can basically illegally wiretap Americans and invade their privacy as it is a "time of war."
I am not American so I may be way off, but I thought the Patriot act that was passed after 9/11 allows them to do this? If that is the case, then it hardly seems illegal, even if you don't agree with the law.
You are correct. Nobody could impeach Bush even if they wanted to. They have no case.
It saddens me that people forget the 3000+ people that died. They were Moms, Dads, Bros, and sisters.
Political gains is all they think about.
Are you talking about 9/11 or the war in Iraq/Afghanistan?
spacebandit72
Dead Meat
+121|6220|Michigan

Horseman 77 wrote:

You may find  " some " opinions are considerd Facts here and dissent is not tolerated by the " party of compasion " Prepare to be attacked.
I understand... However, that is why I posted. Just stating my opinion.
Some will agree... some won't. It's all good
S4INT05
Member
+1|6220|79605, TX
you know, this whole wire-tap shit is out of hand. for all i know, the NSA have been doing that for a while without the publics knowlege. nothing's changed, just bush made it legal - people freak out. i've got nothing to hide either, so i could care less if they hear about how my day was or my conversations with my parents. not like they're going to use that shit as blackmail.

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