BF2S Forums This is pretty damn pathetic.....Wounded soldier refused a hotel room.

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Do you think you could survive yourself living solely off the welfare system in America lowing, without applying yourself at all for a job?

nope I would not survive

Then how do you expect someone else to?

I don't think you've actually considered or even know what it is like to be in that situation yourself.

If you couldn't survive living on welfare alone, maybe you should show those that do some respect.

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Do you think you could survive yourself living solely off the welfare system in America lowing, without applying yourself at all for a job?

nope I would not survive, in fact the notion scares me so much I made sure I finished school and made myself marketable so I would never be placed in that situation. Also, I doubt a person who made sure they were a qualified auto mechanic is working at McDonalds trying to feed a family of 4, for example.
In fact what is a person who not afford to take care of themselves doing with 4 kids in the first place? Makes ya wonder.

Im guessing you had a supporting loving family to back you up during your education. Not everyone has that luxury. I had and I wouldn't be where I am today if my parents where crack addicts.

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

nope I would not survive

Then how do you expect someone else to?

I don't think you've actually considered or even know what it is like to be in that situation yourself.

If you couldn't survive living on welfare alone, maybe you should show those that do some respect.

1. How do I expect someone else to survive on welfare?..........Easy, I don't! get a fuckin' job like I had to.

2. Yer wrong, I have fucked up and fucked up big. I was broke, in debt, on the verge of divorce all the while trying to run a business which I lost money and failed miserably. Guess what? No one had to pay for my mistake except me. I blamed no one for my mistake except me.

3. Respect for what?  No thank you, I will not respect self inflicted poverty in America

What about those suffering from poverty not self inflcited lowing?

EDIT: Also the title is a bit sensationalist don't you think lowing? Whether you agree with it or not, it was a blanket policy not to serve members of the armed forces. It's not as if they saw this wounded soldier come in and decided to piss all over him for the hell of it.

Last edited by SharkyMcshark (2008-09-20 20:24:50)

JahManRed wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Do you think you could survive yourself living solely off the welfare system in America lowing, without applying yourself at all for a job?

nope I would not survive, in fact the notion scares me so much I made sure I finished school and made myself marketable so I would never be placed in that situation. Also, I doubt a person who made sure they were a qualified auto mechanic is working at McDonalds trying to feed a family of 4, for example.
In fact what is a person who not afford to take care of themselves doing with 4 kids in the first place? Makes ya wonder.

Im guessing you had a supporting loving family to back you up during your education. Not everyone has that luxury. I had and I wouldn't be where I am today if my parents where crack addicts.

I didn't recieve shit,  Ileft home at 18 and was completely on my own.

In fact, it says a lot about your attitude if you think anyone that has done well, musta had help. As if there is no way, self determination could possibly have anything to do with success.

Last edited by lowing (2008-09-20 20:28:54)

lowing wrote:

SharkyMcshark wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. How do I expect someone else to survive on welfare?..........Easy, I don't! get a fuckin' job like I had to.

2. Yer wrong, I have fucked up and fucked up big. I was broke, in debt, on the verge of divorce all the while trying to run a business which I lost money and failed miserably. Guess what? No one had to pay for my mistake except me. I blamed no one for my mistake except me.

3. Respect for what?  No thank you, I will not respect self inflicted poverty in America

What about those suffering from poverty not self inflcited lowing?

EDIT: Also the title is a bit sensationalist don't you think lowing? Whether you agree with it or not, it was a blanket policy not to serve members of the armed forces. It's not as if they saw this wounded soldier come in and decided to piss all over him for the hell of it.

Give me an example of someone who is suffering from poverty that is not self inflicted.

Nope, the blanket policy is just as bad. This hotel might as well be in SF.

What is called 'cultures of poverty' or recurring cycles of poverty. Studied them in anthropology. It's a bit more complex than this, but essentially it's where the children of people living below the poverty line (a significant amount of the population in both America and Australia) themselves end up below the poverty line. When you're born into a family below the poverty line, receive little or no education or training, and receive no support, be it emotional or material, from your family, extended or otherwise, how does that count as self inflicted?

I'm not saying that it's impossible to escape such a situation, but it is damn near impossible. And it is not by any means self inflicted.

lowing wrote:

SharkyMcshark wrote:

lowing wrote:

Give me an example of someone who is suffering from poverty that is not self inflicted.

Nope, the blanket policy is just as bad. This hotel might as well be in SF.

What is called 'cultures of poverty' or recurring cycles of poverty. Studied them in anthropology. It's a bit more complex than this, but essentially it's where the children of people living below the poverty line (a significant amount of the population in both America and Australia) themselves end up below the poverty line. When you're born into a family below the poverty line, receive little or no education or training, and receive no support, be it emotional or material, from your family, extended or otherwise, how does that count as self inflicted?

I'm not saying that it's impossible to escape such a situation, but it is damn near impossible. And it is not by any means self inflicted.

and to think all it would take ot break the cycle would be to get one of the many already exisiting govt. grants and go to school.

Who points the impoverished child in this direction? As much as I'm a fan of free agency you can't say that young people don't need pointing in the right direction at times. And generally by the time they realise this of their own accord it is too late. I can get my books about this stuff out when I get back from my Grandfathers birthday if you want? He's an immigrant former manual labourer who doesn't speak much English. Please don't be offended.

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

nope I would not survive, in fact the notion scares me so much I made sure I finished school and made myself marketable so I would never be placed in that situation. Also, I doubt a person who made sure they were a qualified auto mechanic is working at McDonalds trying to feed a family of 4, for example.
In fact what is a person who not afford to take care of themselves doing with 4 kids in the first place? Makes ya wonder.

And for someone that never got an education? should they have just conjured trade skills from their arse?

Nope I do not, education and trade skills are acquired through going to school or learning a trade. I do not expect them t ocome from asses.

Now the only thing left to do is go get educated or learn a trade. The decison and the responsibility is theirs to make. Knock yerself out.

And yet it takes money to get an education. so their meant to pull the money out of their arse?

lowing wrote:

SharkyMcshark wrote:

lowing wrote:

and to think all it would take ot break the cycle would be to get one of the many already exisiting govt. grants and go to school.

Who points the impoverished child in this direction? As much as I'm a fan of free agency you can't say that young people don't need pointing in the right direction at times. And generally by the time they realise this of their own accord it is too late. I can get my books about this stuff out when I get back from my Grandfathers birthday if you want? He's an immigrant former manual labourer who doesn't speak much English. Please don't be offended.

OK so now you are telling me that we need to help them, so I agree and say take advantage of already existing govt. programs that are available to help people JUST like them. Then you tell me they will not do it because no one directed them to?

Now I have a question. At what part of this scenario does the "victim" take charge of his own life? Or are you telling me he will never take responsibility for his self ( because no one directed him to) so I must do it?

Basically you say we gotta help, so we help, then you say they will not take advantage of the help so we must help more? Fuck that!

But I already addressed that. Here it is again.

As much as I'm a fan of free agency you can't say that young people don't need pointing in the right direction at times. And generally by the time they realise this of their own accord it is too late.

And it's not about 'you' taking charge of their life. It's about the government of a state ensuring that all of its citizens receive a minimum standard of living. If your logic is to be followed you should be angry about paying taxes for things such as upkeep on roads not in your area (Hell, you're not going to use them, why should you pay for others to?), grants for medical research on issues not affecting you, arts grants etc etc.

Fact is that in reality quite little of the money that we pay in taxes comes back to directly benefit us. Most of it is spent on other things, a large proportion of which do not affect directly the individual that was paying the tax. In light of that spending some of this money on ensuring that all can enjoy a minimum standard of living doesn't seem that bad a thing to me...

Spark wrote:

lowing wrote:

SharkyMcshark wrote:

Who points the impoverished child in this direction? As much as I'm a fan of free agency you can't say that young people don't need pointing in the right direction at times. And generally by the time they realise this of their own accord it is too late. I can get my books about this stuff out when I get back from my Grandfathers birthday if you want? He's an immigrant former manual labourer who doesn't speak much English. Please don't be offended.

OK so now you are telling me that we need to help them, so I agree and say take advantage of already existing govt. programs that are available to help people JUST like them. Then you tell me they will not do it because no one directed them to?

Now I have a question. At what part of this scenario does the "victim" take charge of his own life? Or are you telling me he will never take responsibility for his self ( because no one directed him to) so I must do it?

Basically you say we gotta help, so we help, then you say they will not take advantage of the help so we must help more? Fuck that!

And how, pray, do you intend on making said programs work without your tax money?

Never said  Ididn't wanna pay taxes. I said I pay enough for these programs it is time the poor started helping themselves, (to something other than my pocketbook)

lowing wrote:

SharkyMcshark wrote:

lowing wrote:

OK so now you are telling me that we need to help them, so I agree and say take advantage of already existing govt. programs that are available to help people JUST like them. Then you tell me they will not do it because no one directed them to?

Now I have a question. At what part of this scenario does the "victim" take charge of his own life? Or are you telling me he will never take responsibility for his self ( because no one directed him to) so I must do it?

Basically you say we gotta help, so we help, then you say they will not take advantage of the help so we must help more? Fuck that!

But I already addressed that. Here it is again.

As much as I'm a fan of free agency you can't say that young people don't need pointing in the right direction at times. And generally by the time they realise this of their own accord it is too late.

And it's not about 'you' taking charge of their life. It's about the government of a state ensuring that all of its citizens receive a minimum standard of living. If your logic is to be followed you should be angry about paying taxes for things such as upkeep on roads not in your area (Hell, you're not going to use them, why should you pay for others to?), grants for medical research on issues not affecting you, arts grants etc etc.

Fact is that in reality quite little of the money that we pay in taxes comes back to directly benefit us. Most of it is spent on other things, a large proportion of which do not affect directly the individual that was paying the tax. In light of that spending some of this money on ensuring that all can enjoy a minimum standard of living doesn't seem that bad a thing to me...

I find it curious as to how my arguments always wind up to me being accused of "not wanting to pay taxes". I never said  ididn't want to pay my taxes or that taxes are not neccissary. I said, I PAY ENOUGH TAXES. I said, their are programs in place to help people that you already admit are not being taken advantage of by them, because of "no direction".

You can lead a horse to water ( tax funded govt. programs) but you can't make him drink ( take advantage of govt. programs).

The difference between you and me is,the water is flowing. I don't give a fuck if they choose to drink it or not. I do not feel I should have to provide more drinking water when people are dying of thirst right next to the fountain.

That analogy is tenuous at best lowing. Leading a horse to water in this case equate to welfare programs and government intervention. The water source in this case is the grant. The analogy also falls down when you consider that states have a duty of care to their citizens, whereas someone who leads a horse to a water source doesn't really. Also in this case it is not the volume of the drinking water as you stated in your last paragaph, but the act of drinking itself. But enough picking at this.

Also I never said you didn't want to pay your taxes - just that it struck me as odd that you weren't incensed about your money being used on other things that had no direct effect on you. Projecting perhaps? Or just sensitive to this?

I mean as I see it there isn't really any point arguing this issue further as it comes down to ideologies as opposed to facts - and I know sure as hell you aren't going to change my mind on this and I'm not going to change yours. You believe in the value of free agency, not depending on the government, and low taxes. I believe that it is worth incurring an extra taxation cost so that the state will ensure everyone has a minimum standard of living. There are large volumes of evidence to support either side.