Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire
An Ethiopian student who lived in London claims that he was brutally tortured with the involvement of British and US intelligence agencies. Binyam Mohammed, 27, says he spent nearly three years in the CIA's network of 'black sites'. In Morocco he claims he underwent the strappado torture of being hung for hours from his wrists, and scalpel cuts to his chest and penis and that a CIA officer was a regular interrogator.

After his capture in Pakistan, Mohammed says British officials warned him that he would be sent to a country where torture was used. Moroccans also asked him detailed questions about his seven years in London, which his lawyers believe came from British sources. Western agencies believed that he was part of a plot to buy uranium in Asia, bring it to the US and build a 'dirty bomb' in league with Jose Padilla, a US citizen. Mohammed signed a confession but told his lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, he had never met Padilla, or anyone in al-Qaeda. Padilla spent almost four years in American custody, accused of the plot. Last month, after allegations of the torture used against Mohammed emerged, the claims against Padilla were dropped. He now faces a civil charge of supporting al-Qaeda financially. A UK court today found that the British security service had colluded in the unlawful detention of Binyam Mohamed in Pakistan.

A senior US intelligence official told The Observer that the CIA is now in 'deep crisis' following last week's international political storm over the agency's practice of 'extraordinary rendition' - transporting suspects to countries where they face torture. "The smarter people in the Directorate of Operations (the CIA's clandestine operational arm) know that one day, if they do this stuff, they are going to face indictment" he said. "They are simply refusing to participate in these operations, and if they don't have big mortgage or tuition fees to pay they're thinking about trying to resign altogether". Already 22 CIA officers have been charged in absentia in Italy for alleged roles in the rendition of a radical cleric, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, seized - without the knowledge of the Italian government - on a Milan street in February 2003.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/de … cs.alqaida
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fr … _2008.html

So much for the old argument that you just use a bit of harmless waterboarding, it would seem you are quite happy to contract out your torture to people who employ much more medieval techniques. Newsnight did a special on this story tonight and it seems the evidence of his torture and illegal capture and incarceration are strong and the powers that be are having to stand up and face the music on this one.

God bless freedom and liberty.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6438|The Land of Scott Walker
Yes, God bless freedom and liberty.  The United States is the best damn country on planet earth ...
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6682|Tampa Bay Florida

Stingray24 wrote:

Yes, God bless freedom and liberty.  The United States is the best damn country on planet earth ...
Not that I'm not proud of my country, but have you been to any other country?  Because I honestly can't tell much of a difference from what I've seen.  Except around here our education blows. 

Not making a huge point just throwing that out there.  How can you state for a fact your country is the best?  What kind of standards does a counrty have to meet to be the best?
jord
Member
+2,382|6670|The North, beyond the wall.

Spearhead wrote:

What kind of standards does a counrty have to meet to be the best?
It's simple really. Whatever country you're from is the best, according to 95% of people.

On topic.

I watched the special too Braddock, and it was quite interesting but I think everyone has suspicions about the spooks. I always assumed they go to other places of legal jurisdiction a long time ago. In fact isn't there ships that house detainees that are in international waters?
wah1188
You orrible caaaaaaan't
+321|6453|UK
So wait was he not guilty?
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6336|tropical regions of london
russian czarist propaganda is what it is


in god we trust
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6176|Ireland
Ireland is soft and weak.  This is why you fear us.  Now go eat your mutton.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Charged. Accused.

I didn't see anywhere in there that anyone has been proven guilty of anything.

Innocent until proven guilty selectively NOT applied yet again.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6521|Global Command
An Ethiopian student who lived in London claims that he was brutally tortured with the involvement of British and US intelligence agencies.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6709

ATG wrote:

An Ethiopian student who lived in London claims that he was brutally tortured with the involvement of British and US intelligence agencies.
emphasis on...(claims) anyone know this guy personally?
Love is the answer
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Charged. Accused.

I didn't see anywhere in there that anyone has been proven guilty of anything.

Innocent until proven guilty selectively NOT applied yet again.
I'm glad someone has a little sense of morality in this thread. The idea of a potentially innocent suspect being subjected to razorblade torture is atrocious.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire

wah1188 wrote:

So wait was he not guilty?
We don't know...that's the point. His signed confession came after the razor blades funnily enough. What is highly likely is that he was illegally rendered with the assistance of the British security services.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-22 02:33:37)

AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

Poor guy.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6639

Braddock wrote:

wah1188 wrote:

So wait was he not guilty?
We don't know...that's the point.
Really? You seem to have come to your own conclusion.

And why do you always make these U.S. sucks threads? Europe is pretty much the same thing.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Charged. Accused.

I didn't see anywhere in there that anyone has been proven guilty of anything.

Innocent until proven guilty selectively NOT applied yet again.
I'm glad someone has a little sense of morality in this thread. The idea of a potentially innocent suspect being subjected to razorblade torture is atrocious.
I believe you've purposefully missed my point.

Apparently, it's OK to automatically assume that what an individual accuses some country (normally the US directly or by proxy) or organization (normally from the US) of doing is utterly, unquestionably true, based solely on that individual's claims. But NEVER the other way around.

Or, conversely, one must NEVER accuse or punish an individual of anything without iron-clad proof in some as-yet undefined court...but it's perfectly fine to do the same thing with a country (normally the US) or person/organization (normally from the US) that you don't agree with.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Charged. Accused.

I didn't see anywhere in there that anyone has been proven guilty of anything.

Innocent until proven guilty selectively NOT applied yet again.
I'm glad someone has a little sense of morality in this thread. The idea of a potentially innocent suspect being subjected to razorblade torture is atrocious.
I believe you've purposefully missed my point.

Apparently, it's OK to automatically assume that what an individual accuses some country (normally the US directly or by proxy) or organization (normally from the US) of doing is utterly, unquestionably true, based solely on that individual's claims. But NEVER the other way around.

Or, conversely, one must NEVER accuse or punish an individual of anything without iron-clad proof in some as-yet undefined court...but it's perfectly fine to do the same thing with a country (normally the US) or person/organization (normally from the US) that you don't agree with.
You spotted my deliberate mistake and surely with your post you must recognise the double standards that exist in this argument. Obviously the organisation/country involved is not guilty merely by dint of an accusation, they are innocent until proven guilty...however the same attitude isn't applied for anyone who is actually subjected to torture.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

wah1188 wrote:

So wait was he not guilty?
We don't know...that's the point.
Really? You seem to have come to your own conclusion.

And why do you always make these U.S. sucks threads? Europe is pretty much the same thing.
Have I come to my own conclusions? Really? Point out where I said he was innocent or where the security services have actually been found guilty.

Also, the OP is primarily directed at the UK (which was in Europe last time I checked)...it's not my fault that the US manages to creep into almost every story about torture these days.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6639

Braddock wrote:

So much for the old argument that you just use a bit of harmless waterboarding, it would seem you are quite happy to contract out your torture to people who employ much more medieval techniques. Newsnight did a special on this story tonight and it seems the evidence of his torture and illegal capture and incarceration are strong and the powers that be are having to stand up and face the music on this one.

God bless freedom and liberty.
How is this not considered a conclusion?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

So much for the old argument that you just use a bit of harmless waterboarding, it would seem you are quite happy to contract out your torture to people who employ much more medieval techniques. Newsnight did a special on this story tonight and it seems the evidence of his torture and illegal capture and incarceration are strong and the powers that be are having to stand up and face the music on this one.

God bless freedom and liberty.
How is this not considered a conclusion?
Up until now the primary argument on these issues was that only waterboarding was being advocated and that waterboarding was not torture, this case potentially nullifies that argument. As I said - "it would seem you are quite happy to contract out your torture to people who employ much more medieval techniques" - that is not a conclusion, it is an open-ended statement.

I notice that not many people here ever seem very concerned about whether or not these stories might be true, they seem happier to completely refute the claims out of hand rather than discuss the matters properly and take the accusations seriously.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-22 03:37:17)

JahManRed
wank
+646|6620|IRELAND

Nothing new here. Been going on in South America for 50 years. Looks like their are expanding their torture schools programme.
Coke a cola, apple pie and torture.

School of the Americas located at Fort Benning, Georgia
Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the “biggest base for destabilization in Latin America.” The SOA, frequently dubbed the “School of Assassins,” has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.
Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, “disappeared,” massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.
http://www.soaw.org/type.php?type=8
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6172

Braddock wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

So much for the old argument that you just use a bit of harmless waterboarding, it would seem you are quite happy to contract out your torture to people who employ much more medieval techniques. Newsnight did a special on this story tonight and it seems the evidence of his torture and illegal capture and incarceration are strong and the powers that be are having to stand up and face the music on this one.

God bless freedom and liberty.
How is this not considered a conclusion?
Up until now the primary argument on these issues was that only waterboarding was being advocated and that waterboarding was not torture, this case potentially nullifies that argument. As I said - "it would seem you are quite happy to contract out your torture to people who employ much more medieval techniques" - that is not a conclusion, it is an open-ended statement.

I notice that not many people here ever seem very concerned about whether or not these stories might be true, they seem happier to completely refute the claims out of hand rather than discuss the matters properly and take the accusations seriously.
You seem happier to jump on an article like this to prove your past points of torture and to say that your point was more towards the UK is ridiculous or does that whole paragraph about big bad America just a dream I just had. Come on....be real....you and I know damn well that this post was to yet again paint a picture of a renegade American government. You OBVIOUSLY have your own conclusion and you OBVIOUSLY believe the claims. You obviously must have first hand knowledge.....oh you don't?

On the other hand, you nor I know nothing except for a news article!!!! We have two sides saying two things and someone wrote about it....so have you personally seen the evidence from either side? Have you personally sat inside the court or hearing, have you personally talked to both sides or seen pictures or actually seen any ACTUAL proof....No? I am shocked, because you seem to know it all.

I live in a world or reality, this will not be the first or last time someone claimed torture. It won't be the first or last time an issue like this may come up and honestly you don't know shit about it other than a news article. Modern journalists and modern photo journalists are getting more and more undependable than ever. A lot of people with their own agendas.

When any news comes out, whether its a plane crash, or doomsday economics or anything that may be controversial, I hold back any judgement or bandwagon mentalities until I hear and see more and even then, all I know is what is written by some guy out there who may or may not have an agenda. I love how people jump on these claims, jump on these articles and act as if it is the final truth....who knows for sure? I know one thing...you nor I know shit and probably won't for a very long time.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:


I'm glad someone has a little sense of morality in this thread. The idea of a potentially innocent suspect being subjected to razorblade torture is atrocious.
I believe you've purposefully missed my point.

Apparently, it's OK to automatically assume that what an individual accuses some country (normally the US directly or by proxy) or organization (normally from the US) of doing is utterly, unquestionably true, based solely on that individual's claims. But NEVER the other way around.

Or, conversely, one must NEVER accuse or punish an individual of anything without iron-clad proof in some as-yet undefined court...but it's perfectly fine to do the same thing with a country (normally the US) or person/organization (normally from the US) that you don't agree with.
You spotted my deliberate mistake and surely with your post you must recognise the double standards that exist in this argument. Obviously the organisation/country involved is not guilty merely by dint of an accusation, they are innocent until proven guilty...however the same attitude isn't applied for anyone who is actually subjected to torture.
Your fault is that you automatically assume this guy was actually subjected to torture (his accusation). Surely you see the double standard there?

My argument doesn't have double standards. It points out the double standard being applied here (and soooo many other threads on this forum).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6403|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

I notice that not many people here ever seem very concerned about whether or not these stories might be true, they seem happier to completely refute the claims out of hand rather than discuss the matters properly and take the accusations seriously.
Of course there is concern. Those are serious accusations...but they are just that: accusations.

The nature of the accusation doesn't mean you abandon equal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
aerodynamic
FOCKING HELL
+241|5746|Roma
This is all a plot form North Korea to make us fight each other.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/8ea27f2d75b353b0a18b096ed75ec5e142da7cc2.png
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6283|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I notice that not many people here ever seem very concerned about whether or not these stories might be true, they seem happier to completely refute the claims out of hand rather than discuss the matters properly and take the accusations seriously.
Of course there is concern. Those are serious accusations...but they are just that: accusations.

The nature of the accusation doesn't mean you abandon equal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.
We're almost on the same page FEOS, it's the unequal application of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine that concerns me too.

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