Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6690|Tampa Bay Florida
They are calling on lawmakers to consider moving age back to 18

RALEIGH, North Carolina - College presidents from about 100 of the best-known U.S. universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.

The movement called the Amethyst Initiative began quietly recruiting presidents more than a year ago to provoke national debate about the U.S. drinking age, which is among the highest in the world.

"This is a law that is routinely evaded," said John McCardell, former president of Middlebury College in Vermont who started the organization. "It is a law that the people at whom it is directed believe is unjust and unfair and discriminatory."

Other prominent schools in the group include Syracuse, Tufts, Colgate, Kenyon and Morehouse.

But even before the presidents begin the public phase of their efforts, which may include publishing newspaper ads in the coming weeks, they are already facing sharp criticism.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving says lowering the drinking age would lead to more fatal car crashes. It accuses the presidents of misrepresenting science and looking for an easy way out of an inconvenient problem. MADD officials are even urging parents to think carefully about the safety of colleges whose presidents have signed on.

"It's very clear the 21-year-old drinking age will not be enforced at those campuses," said Laura Dean-Mooney, national president of MADD.

Injuries, deaths from alcohol abuse
Both sides agree alcohol abuse by college students is a huge problem.

Research has found more than 40 percent of college students reported at least one symptom of alcohol abuse or dependence. One study has estimated more than 500,000 full-time students at four-year colleges suffer injuries each year related in some way to drinking, and about 1,700 die in such accidents.

A recent Associated Press analysis of federal records found that 157 college-age people, 18 to 23, drank themselves to death from 1999 through 2005.

Moana Jagasia, a Duke University sophomore from Singapore, where the drinking age is lower, said reducing the age in the U.S. could be helpful.

"There isn't that much difference in maturity between 21 and 18," she said. "If the age is younger, you're getting exposed to it at a younger age, and you don't freak out when you get to campus."

McCardell's group takes its name from ancient Greece, where the purple gemstone amethyst was widely believed to ward off drunkenness if used in drinking vessels and jewelry. He said college students will drink no matter what, but do so more dangerously when it's illegal.

The statement the presidents have signed avoids calling explicitly for a younger drinking age. Rather, it seeks "an informed and dispassionate debate" over the issue and the federal highway law that made 21 the de facto national drinking age by denying money to any state that bucks the trend.

But the statement makes clear the signers think the current law isn't working, citing a "culture of dangerous, clandestine binge-drinking," and noting that while adults under 21 can vote and enlist in the military, they "are told they are not mature enough to have a beer." Furthermore, "by choosing to use fake IDs, students make ethical compromises that erode respect for the law."

Shifting burden to high schools
But some college administrators sharply disagree that lowering the drinking age would help. University of Miami President Donna Shalala, who served as secretary of health and human services under President Bill Clinton, declined to sign.

"I remember college campuses when we had 18-year-old drinking ages, and I honestly believe we've made some progress," Shalala said in a telephone interview. "To just shift it back down to the high schools makes no sense at all."

Another scholar who has extensively researched college binge-drinking also criticized the presidents' initiative.

"I understand why colleges are doing it, because it splits their students, and they like to treat them all alike rather than having to card some of them. It's a nuisance to them," said Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health.

But, he added, "I wish these college presidents sat around and tried to work out ways to deal with the problem on their campus rather than try to eliminate the problem by defining it out of existence."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26271328
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York
Move gambling back to 18 as well. As much as I love poker, I want to play something other than that when I go to Vegas.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6690|Tampa Bay Florida
Its pretty ridiculous how you can die for your country but not order a beer.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina
Indeed it is...  great thread Spearhead...
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6324|New Haven, CT
Supposedly, someone did a study and found that alcoholism is a greater problem in countries with lower drinking ages. I can't find where it is, though.

Edit: And I like how they specifically mentioned Duke, Dartmouth, and  Ohio State - three universities with a known prevalence of drinking. The MADD argument that the college presidents just want to alleviate a problem the easy way seems to have some basis.

Last edited by nukchebi0 (2008-08-18 20:43:53)

Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York

Spearhead wrote:

Its pretty ridiculous how you can die for your country but not order a beer.
Yup. Not like it stops me or anyone else from drinking anyways, but meh.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

nukchebi0 wrote:

Supposedly, someone did a study and found that alcoholism is a greater problem in countries with lower drinking ages. I can't find where it is, though.
Most of what I've seen would contradict that.  For example, in Spain, they raise kids on alcohol starting around 12.  They have a little wine with dinner and teach their kids how to drink responsibly (like never drinking on an empty stomach).

Basically, if alcohol isn't taboo, there's less temptation to binge drink in order to rebel.  If it's a family thing, then drinking becomes social and casual in nature.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command
Reminds me of the immigration isse;
Everybody is breaking the law, so why enforce it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina
Don't forget pot...
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6324|New Haven, CT

Turquoise wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Supposedly, someone did a study and found that alcoholism is a greater problem in countries with lower drinking ages. I can't find where it is, though.
Most of what I've seen would contradict that.  For example, in Spain, they raise kids on alcohol starting around 12.  They have a little wine with dinner and teach their kids how to drink responsibly (like never drinking on an empty stomach).

Basically, if alcohol isn't taboo, there's less temptation to binge drink in order to rebel.  If it's a family thing, then drinking becomes social and casual in nature.
Okay...it sounds good.

I'll have to go searching where I read the study to see whether or not I can find it.
David.P
Banned
+649|6274
Fuck let's move it back further! To 10! And make it that you're an Adult at that age, Plus making drugs legal! Hell yeah motherfuckers! I'd be so fucking drunk and stoned at that age, and i could get all the hookers i wanted.
Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|5965|London, England

I think we should become India when it comes to drinking
_______________________________________________________________________________________________ https://i.imgur.com/Xj4f2.png
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6685|United States of America
As if making it legal would make a kegger any less rowdy...
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6153|what

Poseidon wrote:

Move gambling back to 18 as well. As much as I love poker, I want to play something other than that when I go to Vegas.
I didn't know your legal age for gambling was also 21.

That's pretty ridiculous imo. The 18 drinking age is much better, because you won't see the 21 year olds binge drinking for the first time until they pass out.

If they try it when they are younger they are generally much more cautious and still under parental supervision or at the very least whoever is serving them alcohol knows that they are young and not to serve them too much.

The only downside you might face is that younger kids under 18 will try to pass themselves off as older, but 18 year olds passing off for 21 is much easier than some pimply faced 14 year old. (looks towards sherrifs direction)
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

nukchebi0 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Supposedly, someone did a study and found that alcoholism is a greater problem in countries with lower drinking ages. I can't find where it is, though.
Most of what I've seen would contradict that.  For example, in Spain, they raise kids on alcohol starting around 12.  They have a little wine with dinner and teach their kids how to drink responsibly (like never drinking on an empty stomach).

Basically, if alcohol isn't taboo, there's less temptation to binge drink in order to rebel.  If it's a family thing, then drinking becomes social and casual in nature.
Okay...it sounds good.

I'll have to go searching where I read the study to see whether or not I can find it.
There's an X factor to consider with alcoholism.  Certain ethnicities are more genetically prone to alcoholism.  Look at Native Americans, for example.  It's more than just a stereotype that Native Americans often have a genetic proclivity to being alcohol addicted.  This tendency is found among some Irish, Germans, and Russians, among others.

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-08-18 20:53:08)

Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|5965|London, England

TheAussieReaper wrote:

That's pretty ridiculous imo. The 18 drinking age is much better, because you won't see the 21 year olds binge drinking for the first time until they pass out.
You'll see 18 year olds binging until they pass out, much safer you're right

Last edited by Mutantsteak (2008-08-18 20:53:45)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________ https://i.imgur.com/Xj4f2.png
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Move gambling back to 18 as well. As much as I love poker, I want to play something other than that when I go to Vegas.
I didn't know your legal age for gambling was also 21.

That's pretty ridiculous imo. The 18 drinking age is much better, because you won't see the 21 year olds binge drinking for the first time until they pass out.
Poker's 18, Everything else (Blackjack, Slots, etc) is 21. Atleast, that's what it was when I was at the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel/Casino a couple weeks back.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6153|what

Turquoise wrote:

There's an X factor to consider with alcoholism.  Certain ethnicities are more genetically prone to alcoholism.  Look at Native Americans, for example.  It's more than just a stereotype that Native Americans often have a genetic proclivity to being alcohol addicted.  This tendency is found among some Irish, Germans, and Russians, among others.
Wow. You really think alcohol addiction is caused by genetics? Have you ever seen any proof of this wild claim?

Maybe if you bothered to analyse this in any depth, you would realise that the reason native Americans are seen as more likely to be addicted to alcohol, is entirely to do with their economic background.

Poorer classes of individuals are less likely to be educated on the dangerous of drug and alcohol abuse, for a start.

And as for the Irish, Germans and Russians, that's more of a cultural background than anything else. Each of those countries are famous for the brews of beer and in Russia's case, spirits. But to you that means that everyone from those countries are more likely to be drunks due to their DNA?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6153|what

Mutantsteak wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

That's pretty ridiculous imo. The 18 drinking age is much better, because you won't see the 21 year olds binge drinking for the first time until they pass out.
You'll see 18 year olds binging until they pass out, much safer you're right
Much harder to catch an 18 year old pretending to be 21, than it is for a 15 or 16 year old. If you had bothered to read the next paragraph of my post.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Veridic
Member
+2|6149
If they are worried about shifting the burden to High Schools, maybe instead of showing a drivers license/ID to buy beer, you should have to show a High School Diploma.

At least then, you could feel like you earned the brain cells you were about to kill.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

There's an X factor to consider with alcoholism.  Certain ethnicities are more genetically prone to alcoholism.  Look at Native Americans, for example.  It's more than just a stereotype that Native Americans often have a genetic proclivity to being alcohol addicted.  This tendency is found among some Irish, Germans, and Russians, among others.
Wow. You really think alcohol addiction is caused by genetics? Have you ever seen any proof of this wild claim?

Maybe if you bothered to analyse this in any depth, you would realise that the reason native Americans are seen as more likely to be addicted to alcohol, is entirely to do with their economic background.

Poorer classes of individuals are less likely to be educated on the dangerous of drug and alcohol abuse, for a start.

And as for the Irish, Germans and Russians, that's more of a cultural background than anything else. Each of those countries are famous for the brews of beer and in Russia's case, spirits. But to you that means that everyone from those countries are more likely to be drunks due to their DNA?
Alcoholism does have a genetic link, as do many psychological disorders.

"The quantity, frequency and regularity of alcohol consumption required to develop alcoholism varies greatly from person to person. In addition, although the biological mechanisms underpinning alcoholism are uncertain, some risk factors, including social environment, emotional health and genetic predisposition, have been identified."

"Psychiatric geneticists John I. Nurnberger, Jr., and Laura Jean Bierut suggest that alcoholism does not have a single cause—including genetic—but that genes do play an important role 'by affecting processes in the body and brain that interact with one another and with an individual's life experiences to produce protection or susceptibility.' They also report that less than a dozen alcoholism-related genes have been identified, but that more likely await discovery.

At least one genetic test exists for an allele that is correlated to alcoholism and opiate addiction. Human dopamine receptor genes have a detectable variation referred to as the DRD2 TaqI polymorphism. Those who possess the A1 allele (variation) of this polymorphism have a small but significant tendency towards addiction to opiates and endorphin releasing drugs like alcohol. Although this allele is slightly more common in alcoholics and opiate addicts, it is not by itself an adequate predictor of alcoholism, and some researchers argue that evidence for DRD2 is contradictory."


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism

Several primary links are provided in the page.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6153|what

Turquoise wrote:

At least one genetic test exists for an allele that is correlated to alcoholism and opiate addiction. Human dopamine receptor genes have a detectable variation referred to as the DRD2 TaqI polymorphism. Those who possess the A1 allele (variation) of this polymorphism have a small but significant tendency towards addiction to opiates and endorphin releasing drugs like alcohol. Although this allele is slightly more common in alcoholics and opiate addicts, it is not by itself an adequate predictor of alcoholism, and some researchers argue that evidence for DRD2 is contradictory."
Wow. Your own source (if you can call wikipedia a source) even disputes your claim.

"it is not by itself an adequate predictor of alcoholism"

"researchers argue that evidence for DRD2 is contradictory"
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

At least one genetic test exists for an allele that is correlated to alcoholism and opiate addiction. Human dopamine receptor genes have a detectable variation referred to as the DRD2 TaqI polymorphism. Those who possess the A1 allele (variation) of this polymorphism have a small but significant tendency towards addiction to opiates and endorphin releasing drugs like alcohol. Although this allele is slightly more common in alcoholics and opiate addicts, it is not by itself an adequate predictor of alcoholism, and some researchers argue that evidence for DRD2 is contradictory."
Wow. Your own source (if you can call wikipedia a source) even disputes your claim.

"it is not by itself an adequate predictor of alcoholism"

"researchers argue that evidence for DRD2 is contradictory"
Well, I'm not saying that it's foolproof.  It looks like a lot of research is yet to be done, but there would appear to be a connection.  But yes, it's not an exact predictor, which is why I referred to it as an "X factor."
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6153|what

Turquoise wrote:

Well, I'm not saying that it's foolproof.  It looks like a lot of research is yet to be done, but there would appear to be a connection.  But yes, it's not an exact predictor, which is why I referred to it as an "X factor."
No you said

Turquoise wrote:

There's an X factor to consider with alcoholism. Certain ethnicities are more genetically prone to alcoholism. Look at Native Americans, for example.
The "evidence" you produced claims that there is a single genetic allele that causes a very slight change in the brains response to such drugs as alcohol, and that is still very widely disputed by researchers.

And your source didn't even link or point to anything at all to do with "certain ethnicities" as you claim.

I want you to show me what evidence, if any, there is that Native Americans are genetically disposed to become alcoholics.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Veridic
Member
+2|6149
I think when my daughter turns 18 or so, I am going to give her the most god-awful, foul-tasting, rotten beer I can get ahold of. 

That way, when shes at some college party and some guy is trying to get her drunk, she will just remember that awful taste. 

At least it will make her think twice before drinking.

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