Pages: 1 … 15 16 17 18 19 … 21

 

2008-08-11 15:58:51
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6488|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Braddock wrote:


What the fuck kind of argument is that? The US drop a fucking nuclear bomb on two Japanese cities but it's blue murder when the Russians shell a few buildings...nice double standards.

I disagree with both by the way but I'll play devil's advocate and use one of the oft used excuses by Israel and pro-Iraq war fanboys: "we don't know who was in those buildings, maybe there were militants and troops in there and it was their fault that they endangered the civilian population by hiding among them".
georgians arent doing suicide bombers as far as i can tell, nor are they shooting rockets from apartment buildings, so your example fails hard.

but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING?  get that thru your fucking head.  nothing.  not a damn thing about the subject at all.  that shit was done before any of us here were born.  but still, has not one fucking bearing one the subject.  so stop god dammit.
Okay, we'll sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

There's nothing to see here...move on...there's nothing to see here.
The funny thing is you never bring up what Saddam was doing to his people. Its always "Israel this", "America that"

Here, guess we didn't do the world a favor...

http://www.kdp.se/old/chemical.html


The dropping of the atom bombs on Japan do not hold relevance in this thread. They were dropped to save lives on both sides, the death rate was placed at over 1 million in the first week if the Allied powers invaded Japan.
2008-08-11 15:59:31
Vax
Member
+42|5853|Flyover country

God Save the Queen wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I disagree with both by the way but I'll play devil's advocate and use one of the oft used excuses by Israel and pro-Iraq war fanboys: "we don't know who was in those buildings, maybe there were militants and troops in there and it was their fault that they endangered the civilian population by hiding among them".
these are two uniformed, conventional forces fighting each other.  not rpg yeilding insurgents wearing new balance shoes.
And I have not seen examples of Georgian troops taking cover in those apartments being hit by russian jets.


@ the topic..Much of the decent analysis I have read suggests that there really is not good guys or bad guys in this fight; both sides are in the wrong, Georgia with aggression against S Ossetia, and Russia overreacting....
2008-08-11 15:59:31
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

God Save the Queen wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I disagree with both by the way but I'll play devil's advocate and use one of the oft used excuses by Israel and pro-Iraq war fanboys: "we don't know who was in those buildings, maybe there were militants and troops in there and it was their fault that they endangered the civilian population by hiding among them".
these are two uniformed, conventional forces fighting each other.  not rpg yeilding insurgents wearing new balance shoes.
I know and I hate that excuse when it is used by any side, I'm just illustrating the futility of using it. There may very well have been soldiers in there, there may have been militants in there, hell Ronald McDonald might have been in there but all we know is that the building is toast and those that bombed it will make up whatever story they want to feed the outside world...it's the same when an attack happens in Israel.
2008-08-11 16:01:47
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6388

Braddock wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I disagree with both by the way but I'll play devil's advocate and use one of the oft used excuses by Israel and pro-Iraq war fanboys: "we don't know who was in those buildings, maybe there were militants and troops in there and it was their fault that they endangered the civilian population by hiding among them".
these are two uniformed, conventional forces fighting each other.  not rpg yeilding insurgents wearing new balance shoes.
I know and I hate that excuse when it is used by any side, I'm just illustrating the futility of using it. There may very well have been soldiers in there, there may have been militants in there, hell Ronald McDonald might have been in there but all we know is that the building is toast and those that bombed it will make up whatever story they want to feed the outside world...it's the same when an attack happens in Israel.
Can we attemp to at least keep this one thread on its original topic? I understand Israel is a sore point for you, but that doesnt mean that every other thread has to be about it.
2008-08-11 16:02:25
jord
Member
+2,382|6679|The North, beyond the wall.

oug wrote:

Vax wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:


Shit happens, that's war. There's a hell of a difference between the collateral damaged caused by US bombing in Iraq and Afghanistan and that of the Russian bombing in Georgia.
And the difference lies in the intent. Collateral damage is often a euphemism for 'mistake'. 

Also when was the incident with the aparment block ? Anyone have a link to that? 
Yassin is the only Palestinian militant 'in a wheelchair' hit by Isarael that i can remember, and he was hit on the street, no apartment blocks involved iirc.
The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
I can make up my own mind who to support I don't need to Governments approval...

Plus, Georgia are the underdog. Only dicks don't support the underdog.

I would say dicks and Russians but they fall under the same name.
2008-08-11 16:05:00
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

SgtHeihn wrote:

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

georgians arent doing suicide bombers as far as i can tell, nor are they shooting rockets from apartment buildings, so your example fails hard.

but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING?  get that thru your fucking head.  nothing.  not a damn thing about the subject at all.  that shit was done before any of us here were born.  but still, has not one fucking bearing one the subject.  so stop god dammit.
Okay, we'll sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

There's nothing to see here...move on...there's nothing to see here.
The funny thing is you never bring up what Saddam was doing to his people. Its always "Israel this", "America that"

Here, guess we didn't do the world a favor...

http://www.kdp.se/old/chemical.html


The dropping of the atom bombs on Japan do not hold relevance in this thread. They were dropped to save lives on both sides, the death rate was placed at over 1 million in the first week if the Allied powers invaded Japan.
Whenever the subject of Saddam has been raised I've always voiced my disapproval of the man as a leader and my disgust at him as a human. People tend to blur this with the fact that I question the US led invasion of Iraq but it doesn't change my feelings on the issue. Yes he was a monster and yes he carried out some atrocious acts but a hell of a lot of people have died as a result of Iraq being 'liberated' and we're still a long way off seeing whether the new Iraq will sink or swim when the allies cease their occupation.

If we are talking about the targeting of civilian areas then Hiroshima and Nagasaki become relevant, the only thing that lessens their relevance to a contemporary topic would be how long ago they happened but they still remain relevant in the context of ethics.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-11 16:05:17)

2008-08-11 16:07:52
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6388

Braddock wrote:

If we are talking about the targeting of civilian areas then Hiroshima and Nagasaki become relevant, the only thing that lessens their relevance to a contemporary topic would be how long ago they happened but they still remain relevant in the context of ethics.
And of course the circumstances under which they happened. But Im guessing your gonna choose to ignore that.
2008-08-11 16:09:04
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6520|Πάϊ

jord wrote:

oug wrote:

Vax wrote:


And the difference lies in the intent. Collateral damage is often a euphemism for 'mistake'. 

Also when was the incident with the aparment block ? Anyone have a link to that? 
Yassin is the only Palestinian militant 'in a wheelchair' hit by Isarael that i can remember, and he was hit on the street, no apartment blocks involved iirc.
The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
I can make up my own mind who to support I don't need to Governments approval...

Plus, Georgia are the underdog. Only dicks don't support the underdog.

I would say dicks and Russians but they fall under the same name.
Nobody needs it but we get it anyway.

btw let me make clear I don't support Russia. I'm convinced they were the ones who orchestrated this. Georgia has nothing to gain by declaring war against a giant.
ƒ³
2008-08-11 16:10:10
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

If we are talking about the targeting of civilian areas then Hiroshima and Nagasaki become relevant, the only thing that lessens their relevance to a contemporary topic would be how long ago they happened but they still remain relevant in the context of ethics.
And of course the circumstances under which they happened. But Im guessing your gonna choose to ignore that.
Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
2008-08-11 16:10:19
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6344|tropical regions of london
I dont think theyve declared war
2008-08-11 16:11:07
Vax
Member
+42|5853|Flyover country

oug wrote:

The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
Bullshit. Purposely targeting civilians is different than purposely trying to avoid it.

And what things should I have known about long ago?  Wth do you even know about me? I was asking for some body to verify a claim that was made about "bombing whole apartments building to kill one guy".
2008-08-11 16:12:04
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

oug wrote:

jord wrote:

oug wrote:


The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
I can make up my own mind who to support I don't need to Governments approval...

Plus, Georgia are the underdog. Only dicks don't support the underdog.

I would say dicks and Russians but they fall under the same name.
Nobody needs it but we get it anyway.

btw let me make clear I don't support Russia. I'm convinced they were the ones who orchestrated this. Georgia has nothing to gain by declaring war against a giant.
I have to state clearly also that I do not support Russia, I just feel that there are no innocent parties in this conflict and that WW3 should not be triggered as a result of helping out a cheeky Georgian state who tried to pull a fast one on the opening day of the Olympics.
2008-08-11 16:12:23
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6446|The Land of Scott Walker

God Save the Queen wrote:

I dont think theyve declared war
CNN said they did.
2008-08-11 16:13:05
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6344|tropical regions of london

Stingray24 wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

I dont think theyve declared war
CNN said they did.
jokes?
2008-08-11 16:16:42
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6388

Braddock wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

If we are talking about the targeting of civilian areas then Hiroshima and Nagasaki become relevant, the only thing that lessens their relevance to a contemporary topic would be how long ago they happened but they still remain relevant in the context of ethics.
And of course the circumstances under which they happened. But Im guessing your gonna choose to ignore that.
Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
They didnt start a war with Russia, they attempted to retain control of a segment of their own country, and without purposelly targeting civilians. The Russians then interfered and began to target civilians.

I'm almost but not quite amazed at the comparison between Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and this. But then again, if it gives you a way to nullify what the Russians are doing to compare it to something done in incredibly different circumstances and bash the US, and whats surprising about that.

Last edited by Commie Killer (2008-08-11 16:17:14)

2008-08-11 16:18:43
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6388

Braddock wrote:

Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
No, it doesnt. That was done to obtain a surrender, this is being done for reasons unknown, as the Georgians have already asked for a cease fire and the Russians chose to ignore it.
2008-08-11 16:20:58
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

Vax wrote:

oug wrote:

The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
Bullshit. Purposely targeting civilians is different than purposely trying to avoid it.

And what things should I have known about long ago?  Wth do you even know about me? I was asking for some body to verify a claim that was made about "bombing whole apartments building to kill one guy".
I looked for a link and it seems I was mistaken about the apartment block aspect of the story but 9 passers by were killed in the attack which was carried out in a busy residential area.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

Here's an article that discusses Israel's use of 1 tonne bombs and other niceties in civilian scenarios (source is a bit left-biased admittedly)

http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-shehadeh.html
2008-08-11 16:22:08
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
No, it doesnt. That was done to obtain a surrender, this is being done for reasons unknown, as the Georgians have already asked for a cease fire and the Russians chose to ignore it.
Maybe they're doing it to get a full surrender. If so that makes it okay yeah?

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-11 16:22:28)

2008-08-11 16:22:18
Vax
Member
+42|5853|Flyover country

Braddock wrote:

I have to state clearly also that I do not support Russia, I just feel that there are no innocent parties in this conflict and that WW3 should not be triggered as a result of helping out a cheeky Georgian state who tried to pull a fast one on the opening day of the Olympics.
I'll agree with that. This is a neighborhood brawl, it will only get worse if third parties step in. If there is anything we can do diplomatically to stop the bloodshed, I'd be for it.
2008-08-11 16:24:51
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6520|Πάϊ

Vax wrote:

oug wrote:

The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
Bullshit. Purposely targeting civilians is different than purposely trying to avoid it.

And what things should I have known about long ago?  Wth do you even know about me? I was asking for some body to verify a claim that was made about "bombing whole apartments building to kill one guy".
I didn't mean this to be a personal attack, just a remark about the bias of the media. And in your comment here it is clearly visible again: People are guided to think that only one side targets civilians. That's not true though. In a war both sides do nasty shit. Purposely trying to avoid it my ass. Sorry but I don't buy that stuff.
ƒ³
2008-08-11 16:25:58
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6388

Braddock wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
No, it doesnt. That was done to obtain a surrender, this is being done for reasons unknown, as the Georgians have already asked for a cease fire and the Russians chose to ignore it.
Maybe they're doing it to get a full surrender. If so that makes it okay yeah?
No its not. There is absofuckingloutely no reason the Georgians should surrender their entire country. There was absofuckingloutely no reason for the Russians to even get involved in this.

Thats like if the Mexicans had a revolution and we got involved, or if Ireland had another revolution and the Brits got involved again. Would you agree with that?
2008-08-11 16:26:32
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6550|UK

Braddock wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
No, it doesnt. That was done to obtain a surrender, this is being done for reasons unknown, as the Georgians have already asked for a cease fire and the Russians chose to ignore it.
Maybe they're doing it to get a full surrender. If so that makes it okay yeah?
This US did that with the mexicans.  Went all the way to mexico city, overthrew the govt and left (if my memory serves me).  You could argue that the Russians are doing the exact same thing (perhaps, ever so slightly trigger happy).
2008-08-11 16:27:09
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6388

oug wrote:

Vax wrote:

oug wrote:

The intent is always the same. And you know what, it's too late now... looking for links 'n all that... Bottom line is the people only sympathize with the side their government wants them to. Otherwise you would know about these things long ago. You wouldn't be looking for a forgotten link about an insignificant little story. It's sad but what can you do...
Bullshit. Purposely targeting civilians is different than purposely trying to avoid it.

And what things should I have known about long ago?  Wth do you even know about me? I was asking for some body to verify a claim that was made about "bombing whole apartments building to kill one guy".
I didn't mean this to be a personal attack, just a remark about the bias of the media. And in your comment here it is clearly visible again: People are guided to think that only one side targets civilians. That's not true though. In a war both sides do nasty shit. Purposely trying to avoid it my ass. Sorry but I don't buy that stuff.
I forgot the Georgians purposelly killed civilians for shits and giggles. My bad.
2008-08-11 16:32:16
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:


And of course the circumstances under which they happened. But Im guessing your gonna choose to ignore that.
Well Georgia started this war and have been subsequently crushed, maybe Russia are trying to send out a message by heavily bombing a civilian area...sounds a bit similar to Hiroshima, doesn't it.
They didnt start a war with Russia, they attempted to retain control of a segment of their own country, and without purposelly targeting civilians. The Russians then interfered and began to target civilians.

I'm almost but not quite amazed at the comparison between Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and this. But then again, if it gives you a way to nullify what the Russians are doing to compare it to something done in incredibly different circumstances and bash the US, and whats surprising about that.
You need to do more research on the subject Commie Killer, South Ossetia had a tense de facto independence after an earlier civil war with Georgia, which the Georgian Government had the sense to allow, given that Russia had always said it would have the back of the many Ossetians loyal to Russia (many have Russian passports, which the Russians were only too keen to hand out so as to maintain their own influence in the region). The Ossetians, like the Azhkabians, are a distinct people separate to Georgians with their own culture and heritage but Georgia wants to keep their hold on the region, much in the same way as the old Soviet Union wanted to keep its grip on its many regions. On the opening day of the Olympics Georgia sent troops in to reclaim South Ossetia and, according to Russia, started ethnically cleansing those loyal to Russia (though who knows if that was the case), which brings us to the scenario we have now where Russia have steamed in and kicked Georgia's ass.

Basically you have three sides: Georgia, Russia and in the middle Ossetia, whose soul they are both battling to steal.
2008-08-11 16:37:01
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6291|Éire

Commie Killer wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

No, it doesnt. That was done to obtain a surrender, this is being done for reasons unknown, as the Georgians have already asked for a cease fire and the Russians chose to ignore it.
Maybe they're doing it to get a full surrender. If so that makes it okay yeah?
No its not. There is absofuckingloutely no reason the Georgians should surrender their entire country. There was absofuckingloutely no reason for the Russians to even get involved in this.

Thats like if the Mexicans had a revolution and we got involved, or if Ireland had another revolution and the Brits got involved again. Would you agree with that?
There was no reason for the US to get involved in a territorial dispute between Iraq and Kuwait but they did because they were "looking out for their allies", this is what Russia reckon they are doing. Is it so hard for you to see that other imperialist countries carry on in exactly the same way the US does? I'm not saying it's right but it's what happens.

And there was no need for Hiroshima by the way, the Japanese were already crushed at that stage. But I won't derail the thread with any more Hiroshima talk as it's upsetting too many Americans.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-11 16:37:14)

 

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