The is no God. If there was either one out of dozens of religions/beliefs would have to be right or they're all the same damn thing told differently. Almost ever religion teaches the same morals the only difference is the way they're told and you people perceive it and manipulate it. The only reason religion exists today is that it's what people are raised up knowing the the weak/narrower minded people fail to break from it and actually think for themselves instead of telling themselves lies and feeding bullshit to themselves and using religion to sanctify mass murders and catastrophic MAN-MADE events done with MAN-MADE weapons of mass destruction. Don't call shenanigans because there is the possibility of one tiny flaw in a scientific theory or fact when the best shit you can come up with is that "we are being punished for our sins" or "god has his plan". It's bullshit and you know it. Don't bash atheism just because you blatantly ignore scientific fact because you can't get your head out of the sand to see things for what they actually are.
Exactly, if you'd actually read the fucking Bible god isn't one that is an Almighty Creator or someone that controls all. He is a role model to show you how to lead a good life; not in the sense of luxury, but as a fucking human being in the presence and communities of others just like you so that you make your life worth living because there is sure as hell nothing after life. Heaven isn't some mystical place you go after you die. Heaven is the sense you feel reflecting upon your life and the good you've done and people's lives you've changed right before your screen flatlines. That is what 'enlightenment' or 'the pleasure of 72 virgins is'. Stop selling yourself bullshit. Actually know what you are believing in. Don't buy the corrupted, 2000+ years of manipulation and changes that are in modern day religion. You want a religion. Join fking Buddhism. That is the only religion that is legit because it's barely a religion. It's a way of life. Not some bullshit you kneel on your knees and think to to clear your guilt about what a dick you are to the human community. If you don't want that guilt. Follow a religion like it's meant to be.Dilbert_X wrote:
Fucking hell, if there is a god he/she is a motherfucker.
/rant
Well he did mess with the people during the bilble a LOT. But after that he just goes
-fuck it, they dont deserve it.
Then I keep hearing about God doing it works by healing sick people, the problem here he just seems to heal people who have a disease that can be healed through normal medicine. People who doesn't get love is those who has lost an leg or arm. If he really did help we would se a lot of changes in the world, yet we see horrible stuff happen to people over and over again.
Then another good thing for a question is, how do you know your god is the right one?
-fuck it, they dont deserve it.
Then I keep hearing about God doing it works by healing sick people, the problem here he just seems to heal people who have a disease that can be healed through normal medicine. People who doesn't get love is those who has lost an leg or arm. If he really did help we would se a lot of changes in the world, yet we see horrible stuff happen to people over and over again.
Then another good thing for a question is, how do you know your god is the right one?
Reading the demands that this God imposes on us (Old Testament, Torah, Quaran etc..)Stingray24 wrote:
A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?
I'd say he's the arrogant fucked up one here.
Yeah, good point.Don't buy the corrupted, 2000+ years of manipulation and changes that are in modern day religion.
However the supposed God did create a world in which people are born crippled, damaged, destined to contract a horrible disease - whatever, its not man's work.
Or if God exists and did the above he'd better have a bloody good reason.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Wouldn't that be Satan then? Consider he want to se people suffer.
If you mean born crippled then that is a natural random occurrence, not god. If you have any idea the astronomical number of individual things that need to work 100% perfectly in unison to have your body work remotely well, which I'm sure you do, then you understand that something's happen just out of odds and chance. If they become crippled in their life, it's most likely done by man whether it's a car accident or gunfire. Again, damaged by any form is either natural chance or done by man. Not got. Diseases are no different than animals. They are something born from nature evolved from a similar being and has mutated over million of years. Survival of the fittest. Viruses survive by using other natural resources to duplicate and not die.Dilbert_X wrote:
Yeah, good point.Don't buy the corrupted, 2000+ years of manipulation and changes that are in modern day religion.
However the supposed God did create a world in which people are born crippled, damaged, destined to contract a horrible disease - whatever, its not man's work.
Or if God exists and did the above he'd better have a bloody good reason.
And yes. If god does exist he has a shitload of explaining to do to everyone who walks through those 'pearly gates' or right before he light's them on fire and sends them to hell because he didn't give them reason enough to believe in him.
EDIT:
Of course because since when people started questioning god's power the Church had to create an opposing being to take the wrap for all the bad done yet when you confront a believer about it they just say "God has his plans..."Zukabazuka wrote:
Wouldn't that be Satan then? Consider he want to se people suffer.
Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2008-08-02 06:31:40)
God created that random occurence if he really did create the universe.If you mean born crippled then that is a natural random occurrence, not god.
If its nature in a way its OK, if its some 'plan' then its unacceptable.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Read the New Testament ...Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Reading the demands that this God imposes on us (Old Testament, Torah, Quaran etc..)Stingray24 wrote:
A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?
I'd say he's the arrogant fucked up one here.
Actually, this is false. God is supposedly omnipotent. He could've created us without the destructive tendencies we have. So really, the question is... why did he give us destructive tendencies?Stingray24 wrote:
Belief is optional and up to us to decide with the free will we are given by God. Death and suffering entered the world because of the choice allowed to Adam and Eve. Why did God allow free will? Because He wants a relationship with us. In order for there to be no suffering or pain on earth, it would be necessary eliminate choice.
Even if you assume we have free will, God created us the way we are. Unless of course, you believe that God isn't omnipotent. I don't believe in God at all, but if I did, I'd have a bit of a problem with logically figuring out how all this works.
or 3... realize that #2 is relevant precisely because religion is, for the most part, little more than a tool to control people with. In fact, it's often the source of the suffering.Stingray24 wrote:
So what to do with the injustice we see when our fellow humans bring on one another?
1. Blame God for creating us and giving us free will
2. Point the finger at those who chose to bring suffering on a fellow human being
... those are the choices.
What always struck me as arrogant was the assumption that, if a divine creator exists, we have any significant connection to it. We are beyond insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We live in an infinitely vast universe among a likely countless number of intelligent life forms that all just happen to live very far away from us.Stingray24 wrote:
We demand God step in and stop the suffering and pain we see here on earth before we will acknowledge both His existence and His justice. Do we also demand God step in when we revel in our independence when life is pleasurable? I think not. We squirm like toddlers in a car seat regarding God's existence until life starts to hurt and then we howl and pout for rescue. Why do we behave in such a contradictory manner? We're human and cannot possibly comprehend eternity, yet we demand God apply His justice now according to our liking. A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?
There is no rational reason to assume that, even if God exists, we have anything significant in connection with him/her/it. We are merely grasping at metaphysical straws to persuade ourselves that we have a connection to the divine. What is important is this life, because it's very likely to be the only one we've got.
Whatever happens after death is really in God's hands, if God exists. If there is some sort of divine being out there, I can only hope he judges me by my actions rather than my beliefs, since beliefs are ultimately very petty.
On a side note objectivism does not = sociopathic greed. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objectivism
Going on what Turquise is saying, I wrote this a few months ago on the fly and think it best describes my "Beliefs".
Try this perspective.
Say the bigbang is true. The energy from that massive explosion sent energy outwards and eventually calmed down enough to form stars, planets ect. Now the energy from the bang is still going and the universe continues to expand to this day, we can observe it in fact.
But on to my point, then wa la you got what we call Earth and it just so happened that it could support what we call "Life". From the first proteins and amino acids that somehow created the first single celled organism and from there all sorts of creatures evolved, including our own species. Heres the thing that commonly people pass over, we are the damn universe, we come from it so therefore we are it. And us questioning that merely shows that we are a manifestation of energy that is attempting to understand wtf it is.
Could there be a God? Sure but clearly not in any form that we imagine. Simply truth is we aren't any more important then a damn rock, at the core we are made of the same thing.
Just a different view, you might simply think I am crazy though. Exuse the bad english in parts.
Try this perspective.
Say the bigbang is true. The energy from that massive explosion sent energy outwards and eventually calmed down enough to form stars, planets ect. Now the energy from the bang is still going and the universe continues to expand to this day, we can observe it in fact.
But on to my point, then wa la you got what we call Earth and it just so happened that it could support what we call "Life". From the first proteins and amino acids that somehow created the first single celled organism and from there all sorts of creatures evolved, including our own species. Heres the thing that commonly people pass over, we are the damn universe, we come from it so therefore we are it. And us questioning that merely shows that we are a manifestation of energy that is attempting to understand wtf it is.
Could there be a God? Sure but clearly not in any form that we imagine. Simply truth is we aren't any more important then a damn rock, at the core we are made of the same thing.
Just a different view, you might simply think I am crazy though. Exuse the bad english in parts.
I used to be a strong atheist, but im starting to see and learn religion.
Troll, we definitely agree on the topic of religion, but Objectivism is often practiced like it is a sociopathy for greed.TrollmeaT wrote:
On a side note objectivism does not = sociopathic greed. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objectivism
Extreme collectivism doesn't work because of its mobocratic tendencies. Objectivism doesn't work either because of its extreme selfishness. Practically everything about Ayn Rand seems to reflect being burned by Soviet oppression. She may have correctly identified the problems of Communism, but she didn't seem to realize she was becoming quite a fanatic in her own right.
Rand also seemed to have an irrational hatred of gay people.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-08-02 14:19:08)
Expanding on this, it's always funny to hear people say things like, "the miracle of life." There's nothing miraculous about our existence. Given the size of the universe, there's plenty of room for chance creating life. With the virtually limitless number of planets out there, there are bound to be billions of life forms.topthrill05 wrote:
Going on what Turquise is saying, I wrote this a few months ago on the fly and think it best describes my "Beliefs".
Try this perspective.
Say the bigbang is true. The energy from that massive explosion sent energy outwards and eventually calmed down enough to form stars, planets ect. Now the energy from the bang is still going and the universe continues to expand to this day, we can observe it in fact.
But on to my point, then wa la you got what we call Earth and it just so happened that it could support what we call "Life". From the first proteins and amino acids that somehow created the first single celled organism and from there all sorts of creatures evolved, including our own species. Heres the thing that commonly people pass over, we are the damn universe, we come from it so therefore we are it. And us questioning that merely shows that we are a manifestation of energy that is attempting to understand wtf it is.
Could there be a God? Sure but clearly not in any form that we imagine. Simply truth is we aren't any more important then a damn rock, at the core we are made of the same thing.
Just a different view, you might simply think I am crazy though. Exuse the bad english in parts.
The same even applies to human life on a more personal level. Each one of us is just the result of the 1 sperm out of millions that made it to the egg. There's no miracle of life here either, the odds of one sperm out of millions to make it to the egg are pretty good.
Einstein once said, "God does not roll dice" -- this actually applies quite well to reality in general. Nature plays with the odds in its favor. Most forms of procreation, whether it's plants or animals, involve stacking the odds in favor of fertility.
Anyone who ACTUALLY believes in God would be put away for his crazy behavior.
As for the people on this forum putting on their " I Believe, no really I do " act, just give it a rest or sell your computer, car, house, never marry, and spend every waking moment thinking about your creator and telling others the truth, no matter who they are and without regret because YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND WHAT WHAT HE DEMANDS OF YOU.
You all are like the fucked up attention whore in high school who tries to commit suicide every other week but fails miserably and never seems to ever end up crippled or hurt by the attempts but baths in the glory of the attention it gets her.
If you really believe go out and face evil knowing you are protected by God and it doesn't matter if you are killed, go to Iraq and preach the word of god and help the poor there. Walk among them with your cross held high and let them know that YOU KNOW the one true God will save you as you are doing his bidding.
Yeah, you believe alright, go play your video game.
As for the people on this forum putting on their " I Believe, no really I do " act, just give it a rest or sell your computer, car, house, never marry, and spend every waking moment thinking about your creator and telling others the truth, no matter who they are and without regret because YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND WHAT WHAT HE DEMANDS OF YOU.
You all are like the fucked up attention whore in high school who tries to commit suicide every other week but fails miserably and never seems to ever end up crippled or hurt by the attempts but baths in the glory of the attention it gets her.
If you really believe go out and face evil knowing you are protected by God and it doesn't matter if you are killed, go to Iraq and preach the word of god and help the poor there. Walk among them with your cross held high and let them know that YOU KNOW the one true God will save you as you are doing his bidding.
Yeah, you believe alright, go play your video game.
Because almost every single event in nature can be explained. "God's plan" is a fully non-supported thought.Dilbert_X wrote:
God created that random occurence if he really did create the universe.If you mean born crippled then that is a natural random occurrence, not god.
If its nature in a way its OK, if its some 'plan' then its unacceptable.
While your response is quite appropriate for the holier than thou types and most fundamentalists, there are easy-going religious people that have their doubts. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of religious people are only different from atheists like us in the sense that they are willing to take that leap of fatih and we aren't. I'm not comfortable with believing in what I don't have evidence for. They apparently don't mind it as much, but that doesn't make all religious people worthy of the above ridicule.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Anyone who ACTUALLY believes in God would be put away for his crazy behavior.
As for the people on this forum putting on their " I Believe, no really I do " act, just give it a rest or sell your computer, car, house, never marry, and spend every waking moment thinking about your creator and telling others the truth, no matter who they are and without regret because YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND WHAT WHAT HE DEMANDS OF YOU.
You all are like the fucked up attention whore in high school who tries to commit suicide every other week but fails miserably and never seems to ever end up crippled or hurt by the attempts but baths in the glory of the attention it gets her.
If you really believe go out and face evil knowing you are protected by God and it doesn't matter if you are killed, go to Iraq and preach the word of god and help the poor there. Walk among them with your cross held high and let them know that YOU KNOW the one true God will save you as you are doing his bidding.
Yeah, you believe alright, go play your video game.
The point is this... Dogma is bad. Faith is ok, even if it's illogical, because it's only an idea and can possibly change over time. Dogma is what you seem to be really getting at, and it is bad because of its fanatical nature. Granted, you do sound a bit dogmatic here yourself.
If you watch the movie "Dogma", Kevin Smith explains it better than I can, and he's a Catholic (probably lapsed).
I was addressing the fact that damn near 100% of Christians don't actually believe there is a God yet say they do and even defend their religion as if they truely believe the crap.Turquoise wrote:
While your response is quite appropriate for the holier than thou types and most fundamentalists, there are easy-going religious people that have their doubts. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of religious people are only different from atheists like us in the sense that they are willing to take that leap of fatih and we aren't. I'm not comfortable with believing in what I don't have evidence for. They apparently don't mind it as much, but that doesn't make all religious people worthy of the above ridicule.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Anyone who ACTUALLY believes in God would be put away for his crazy behavior.
As for the people on this forum putting on their " I Believe, no really I do " act, just give it a rest or sell your computer, car, house, never marry, and spend every waking moment thinking about your creator and telling others the truth, no matter who they are and without regret because YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND WHAT WHAT HE DEMANDS OF YOU.
You all are like the fucked up attention whore in high school who tries to commit suicide every other week but fails miserably and never seems to ever end up crippled or hurt by the attempts but baths in the glory of the attention it gets her.
If you really believe go out and face evil knowing you are protected by God and it doesn't matter if you are killed, go to Iraq and preach the word of god and help the poor there. Walk among them with your cross held high and let them know that YOU KNOW the one true God will save you as you are doing his bidding.
Yeah, you believe alright, go play your video game.
The point is this... Dogma is bad. Faith is ok, even if it's illogical, because it's only an idea and can possibly change over time. Dogma is what you seem to be really getting at, and it is bad because of its fanatical nature. Granted, you do sound a bit dogmatic here yourself.
If you watch the movie "Dogma", Kevin Smith explains it better than I can, and he's a Catholic (probably lapsed).
Doesn't matter if they are nice or not, just pointing out that I and they know they are liers because some who knows their is a God and the Bible is the word of God would be put away. They sure the hell wouldn't conform to US society and would have trouble with the law and government.
I'd disagree that 100% (or anywhere near) of them dont believe in it. A percentage like that could be applied though, to how many have actually read the bible, or, understand the premis of it. I often find it strange that when a theist goes up against an atheist, they proclaim that said unbeliever needs enlightend, when, infact its often more so the case that the atheist is better versed in religion than the believer.Lotta_Drool wrote:
I was addressing the fact that damn near 100% of Christians don't actually believe there is a God yet say they do and even defend their religion as if they truely believe the crap.Turquoise wrote:
While your response is quite appropriate for the holier than thou types and most fundamentalists, there are easy-going religious people that have their doubts. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of religious people are only different from atheists like us in the sense that they are willing to take that leap of fatih and we aren't. I'm not comfortable with believing in what I don't have evidence for. They apparently don't mind it as much, but that doesn't make all religious people worthy of the above ridicule.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Anyone who ACTUALLY believes in God would be put away for his crazy behavior.
As for the people on this forum putting on their " I Believe, no really I do " act, just give it a rest or sell your computer, car, house, never marry, and spend every waking moment thinking about your creator and telling others the truth, no matter who they are and without regret because YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND WHAT WHAT HE DEMANDS OF YOU.
You all are like the fucked up attention whore in high school who tries to commit suicide every other week but fails miserably and never seems to ever end up crippled or hurt by the attempts but baths in the glory of the attention it gets her.
If you really believe go out and face evil knowing you are protected by God and it doesn't matter if you are killed, go to Iraq and preach the word of god and help the poor there. Walk among them with your cross held high and let them know that YOU KNOW the one true God will save you as you are doing his bidding.
Yeah, you believe alright, go play your video game.
The point is this... Dogma is bad. Faith is ok, even if it's illogical, because it's only an idea and can possibly change over time. Dogma is what you seem to be really getting at, and it is bad because of its fanatical nature. Granted, you do sound a bit dogmatic here yourself.
If you watch the movie "Dogma", Kevin Smith explains it better than I can, and he's a Catholic (probably lapsed).
Doesn't matter if they are nice or not, just pointing out that I and they know they are liers because some who knows their is a God and the Bible is the word of God would be put away. They sure the hell wouldn't conform to US society and would have trouble with the law and government.
That said, I think we need to be able to define, what is ''God'', before we can go aserting that it exists or not.
I dont believe in the theist God (holy trinity) or any of that other jazz, but, some, abstract creator isnt beyond the realms of possbility. Would you say am crazy for thinking that?
Martyn
You didn't say you believe there is " X " God and Book " X " is what he says, and then drive past 3 homeless people to buy a Plasma T.V. and were afraid to tell the two atheists talking at work that you know there is a God and they will go to hell unless they read this book and believe in him too, because you are worried about what they might think of you or that you might be fired.Bell wrote:
I'd disagree that 100% (or anywhere near) of them dont believe in it. A percentage like that could be applied though, to how many have actually read the bible, or, understand the premis of it. I often find it strange that when a theist goes up against an atheist, they proclaim that said unbeliever needs enlightend, when, infact its often more so the case that the atheist is better versed in religion than the believer.Lotta_Drool wrote:
I was addressing the fact that damn near 100% of Christians don't actually believe there is a God yet say they do and even defend their religion as if they truely believe the crap.Turquoise wrote:
While your response is quite appropriate for the holier than thou types and most fundamentalists, there are easy-going religious people that have their doubts. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of religious people are only different from atheists like us in the sense that they are willing to take that leap of fatih and we aren't. I'm not comfortable with believing in what I don't have evidence for. They apparently don't mind it as much, but that doesn't make all religious people worthy of the above ridicule.
The point is this... Dogma is bad. Faith is ok, even if it's illogical, because it's only an idea and can possibly change over time. Dogma is what you seem to be really getting at, and it is bad because of its fanatical nature. Granted, you do sound a bit dogmatic here yourself.
If you watch the movie "Dogma", Kevin Smith explains it better than I can, and he's a Catholic (probably lapsed).
Doesn't matter if they are nice or not, just pointing out that I and they know they are liers because some who knows their is a God and the Bible is the word of God would be put away. They sure the hell wouldn't conform to US society and would have trouble with the law and government.
That said, I think we need to be able to define, what is ''God'', before we can go aserting that it exists or not.
I dont believe in the theist God (holy trinity) or any of that other jazz, but, some, abstract creator isnt beyond the realms of possbility. Would you say am crazy for thinking that?
Martyn
:'(usmarine wrote:
some of you worship this thing, person, being, spirit, w/e called god and say he/she/it has a plan for everyone. this is his/her/its plan? this is what you worship? his/hers/its plan is to have someone born handicapped and then suffer till the bitter end. fucking awesome. fucks sake wake the fuck up.
may these fuckers die the worst death you can think of.
----------------------------------------
"Four social workers were among nine people charged Thursday in the death of a disabled 14-year-old girl who authorities say wasted away from neglect before dying at 42 pounds."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080731/ap_ … th_charges
Well, I actually think your assumptions here are better applied to people with power in religion. With the way that the upper hierarchy of the Catholic Church acts, I'd say they're probably atheists who don't want to ruin a good scam. The same applies to the higher officials of Islam, televangelists, and most of those mega-church preachers.Lotta_Drool wrote:
I was addressing the fact that damn near 100% of Christians don't actually believe there is a God yet say they do and even defend their religion as if they truely believe the crap.Turquoise wrote:
While your response is quite appropriate for the holier than thou types and most fundamentalists, there are easy-going religious people that have their doubts. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of religious people are only different from atheists like us in the sense that they are willing to take that leap of fatih and we aren't. I'm not comfortable with believing in what I don't have evidence for. They apparently don't mind it as much, but that doesn't make all religious people worthy of the above ridicule.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Anyone who ACTUALLY believes in God would be put away for his crazy behavior.
As for the people on this forum putting on their " I Believe, no really I do " act, just give it a rest or sell your computer, car, house, never marry, and spend every waking moment thinking about your creator and telling others the truth, no matter who they are and without regret because YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND WHAT WHAT HE DEMANDS OF YOU.
You all are like the fucked up attention whore in high school who tries to commit suicide every other week but fails miserably and never seems to ever end up crippled or hurt by the attempts but baths in the glory of the attention it gets her.
If you really believe go out and face evil knowing you are protected by God and it doesn't matter if you are killed, go to Iraq and preach the word of god and help the poor there. Walk among them with your cross held high and let them know that YOU KNOW the one true God will save you as you are doing his bidding.
Yeah, you believe alright, go play your video game.
The point is this... Dogma is bad. Faith is ok, even if it's illogical, because it's only an idea and can possibly change over time. Dogma is what you seem to be really getting at, and it is bad because of its fanatical nature. Granted, you do sound a bit dogmatic here yourself.
If you watch the movie "Dogma", Kevin Smith explains it better than I can, and he's a Catholic (probably lapsed).
Doesn't matter if they are nice or not, just pointing out that I and they know they are liers because some who knows their is a God and the Bible is the word of God would be put away. They sure the hell wouldn't conform to US society and would have trouble with the law and government.
Most politicians that use religion as a calling card are probably atheist as well (like Larry Craig).
Generally speaking, power, education, and wealth tend to make people less religious, while poverty and ignorance tend to make people more religious. There are always exceptions to the rule though....
Wow. I don't think I can discuss religious issues anymore here because it will just fall on the deaf ears of the "open-minded" folks that populate this forum.
The topic had a flimsy connection to reliigion in the first place. The topic where the parents prayed while their daughter (I believe it was the daughter, if I recall correctly) was dying warranted a response but jeez....
The topic had a flimsy connection to reliigion in the first place. The topic where the parents prayed while their daughter (I believe it was the daughter, if I recall correctly) was dying warranted a response but jeez....
If you believe in a Christian god, ie all knowing there is no such thing as free will. All knowing god and free will are not compatible. The two concepts are counter to each other.Stingray24 wrote:
Belief is optional and up to us to decide with the free will we are given by God. Death and suffering entered the world because of the choice allowed to Adam and Eve. Why did God allow free will? Because He wants a relationship with us. In order for there to be no suffering or pain on earth, it would be necessary eliminate choice.
So what to do with the injustice we see when our fellow humans bring on one another?
1. Blame God for creating us and giving us free will
2. Point the finger at those who chose to bring suffering on a fellow human being
... those are the choices.
We demand God step in and stop the suffering and pain we see here on earth before we will acknowledge both His existence and His justice. Do we also demand God step in when we revel in our independence when life is pleasurable? I think not. We squirm like toddlers in a car seat regarding God's existence until life starts to hurt and then we howl and pout for rescue. Why do we behave in such a contradictory manner? We're human and cannot possibly comprehend eternity, yet we demand God apply His justice now according to our liking. A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?