BF2S Forums Within 20 Years, Muslims Will Be Majority in Europe

lowing wrote:

well I can not stop them from calling themselves whatever they want can I? That does not change the FACT that they are not FOLLOWING the beliefs of the relgion they say they are FOLLOWING.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-07-31 10:11:12)

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

so are you a christian lowing?

Already answered this, but no I am agnostic

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

well I can not stop them from calling themselves whatever they want can I? That does not change the FACT that they are not FOLLOWING the beliefs of the relgion they say they are FOLLOWING.

Nor are Christians or Jews. Ergo your point is pretty....well....pointless! Religion IS how it is interpreted. Full Stop. There are too many ambiguities in each faith for ANYONE to follow ANYTHING. It requires interpretation.

No actually, I believe Jesus is pretty clear in his teachings, the problem is no one can attain that level of righteousness, so we have resorted to "interpretation" to bring it down a notch and start telling each other what Jesus meant over what he said in order to justify our behavior and our short comings. Hence the 20,000 different versions of Christianity. When in fact there really is only one teaching of Jesus. IMO of course

lowing wrote:

You can not have CHRISTIANITY 2000 years before you have CHRIST Cam, no matter how hard you want to join the two they are separate books.

OLD Testament and NEW Testament. The NEW Covenant.

Christians ACKNOWLEDGE the old testament but follow the new covenant between them and God which is the message delivered by Jesus.

CameronPoe wrote:

Jesus never refuted any of the nonsense about women's place in society. You also ignore the fact that the religion Christianity, whether you like it or not, treats the Old Testament as the actual words of God: as followed by Jesus himself, who was Jewish.

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Maybe someone can explain to me why if a westerner goes to a ME country he would be considered a fish out of water because his culture does not blend well in a ME culture, yet it is totally outragous and racist and insulting to say the reverse.


If that western gave up his western culture and adopted an Islamic culture, would we say he is not practicing his western beliefs, if he scorned women or stoned a homosexual? Yet again to say that a Muslim who comes to the west and adopts western ways and for goes his Islamic beliefs and left them behind in the ME, would be considered rediculous and insulting....Gimme a break

You make it sound so black and white. It's not like that at all.

There are levels of acceptance and what is tolerable in all countries and this varies drastically. Dubai is a good example of a ME country with a huge western population. The government there makes many accommodations for westerners, but equally there are lines that should not be crossed. It's not about adopting western ways or adopting islamic ways, it's about what is socially acceptable - which is a different matter altogether.

No in the case of Dubai religion has been "interpreted" so a govt. can make accomodations so as to make as much money as it possibly can make from the west.

there are no "degrees" of acceptance, you either accept and follow the written word, or twist  ( "INTERPRET" ) the written word to suit your needs of the moment.

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:

m3thod wrote:

I follow Islam how i see fit and you don't have the right to tell me what i can and can't do based on what you've read on how islam should be followed.  You're a infidel for god sake.

Are you telling me you explicitly follow every law and rule hard and fast? Never jaywalked? Sped? Farted in an enclosed public space? Because it seems its what you want muslims to do.

If you follow Islam "how you see fit", then you are not following Islam. You are following a religion that you have made up to fit your lifestyle, your agenda, your beliefs, for nothing more than your convenience. You have simply stole SOME ideas from one religion t ofill in the blanks. Call it something else, because Islam is taken.

Funny you should use those examples. Yeah I have jaywalked, sped, and by doing so isn't FOLLOWING the rules now is it? Thanks for proving my point.

If you don't follow the laws of the United States of America then you're not a law abiding American citizen.   That means you should be jailed and throughly punished.  Simple isn't?  You pull me up for not being a true follower of islam as i dont explicity follow every rule and yet vindicate yourself using the same principle. 

So i guess by your defination above i am not a muslim, well gee whatever shall i do?! Again, you dont have the right to tell me what i am.  Maybe if you were a muslim but we have enough nutjobs as it is.  Application: Denied.

Back on point, teachings are one thing lowing, how they are interpreted and followed are quite another.  Only a fool will follow them explicity. Hint; they're usually called extermists and you kinda fit their profile quite nicely.

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

m3thod wrote:

Stop hammer time.  I don't percive women as worthless or homosexuality a crime, so that doesn't hold water.  It's like saying all Christians are war mongers based on a few (demented) people you've proberbly heard of...

Where in the teachings of Islam ( and it might)  does it hold women as equals or homosexuality as acceptable? If it does not teach this, then you are not following Islam are you?

In the story of paradise lost Islam regards man and woman as equally culpable whereas Christianity holds woman to blame for leading man astray.

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

In the story of paradise lost Islam regards man and woman as equally culpable whereas Christianity holds woman to blame for leading man astray.

Really? CHRISTIANITY meaning the teachings of CHRIST, says this??

Did Jesus Christ get baptised, yes or no?

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

No in the case of Dubai religion has been "interpreted" so a govt. can make accomodations so as to make as much money as it possibly can make from the west.

there are no "degrees" of acceptance, you either accept and follow the written word, or twist  ( "INTERPRET" ) the written word to suit your needs of the moment.

There absolutely are degrees of acceptance. It is the way you see all of this in black and white that gives you such a misguided perspective. There will always be appealing elements of different cultures that are embraced by migrants, while they still cling to many elements of their own culture. This leads to a sort of cultural amalgamation which is the sort of thing you see all across Europe, particularly London - it is also very obvious in a number of ME countries, but is not restricted to the scope of this debate (about Muslims), since it can be seen in loads of other countries which have been significantly influenced by others (the commonwealth being an example).

Nothing. Absolutely nothing, is EVER black and white. Everything is shades of grey.

Nope you are comparing social acceptances with RELIGIOUS teachings. 2 very differnt things. Socially we can all bend t oaccomadate anything we please. Interpretation of a written word is to bend that word into something YOU can use for your own agenda.

Our Constitution is a perfect example. The word is written, but depending on which side of the debate you are on, you will twist the word or exclude parts of it, to support your position. Totally disregarding the intent. By doing so you have changed what has been written, so you might as well come up with your own laws ( start a new religion ) to support whatever it is you wanna believe to be true.


I do not believe everything is shades of grey.

You are either a virgin or you are not

You are either pregnant or you are not

You either adhere to your religion or you do not. How you think you can be able to ONLY adhere to those parts of a religion that suits you is beyond me. I love your ideaa of an effortless religion, no sacrificing of ones self, no devotion and total justification for your actions because you have "interpreted" the word to grant it. Gimme a break. You have created your own religion by doing this bullshit.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-07-31 15:30:52)

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

There absolutely are degrees of acceptance. It is the way you see all of this in black and white that gives you such a misguided perspective. There will always be appealing elements of different cultures that are embraced by migrants, while they still cling to many elements of their own culture. This leads to a sort of cultural amalgamation which is the sort of thing you see all across Europe, particularly London - it is also very obvious in a number of ME countries, but is not restricted to the scope of this debate (about Muslims), since it can be seen in loads of other countries which have been significantly influenced by others (the commonwealth being an example).

Nothing. Absolutely nothing, is EVER black and white. Everything is shades of grey.

Nope you are comparing social acceptances with RELIGIOUS teachings. 2 very differnt things. Socially we can all bend t oaccomadate anything we please. Interpretation of a written word is to bend that word into something YOU can use for your own agenda.

Our Constitution is a perfect example. The word is written, but depending on which side of the debate you are on, you will twist the word or exclude parts of it, to support your position. Totally disregarding the intent. By doing so you have changed what has been written, so you might as well come up with your own laws ( start a new religion ) to support whatever it is you wanna believe to be true.


I do not believe everything is shades of grey.

You are either a virgin or you are not

You are either pregnant or you are not

You either adhere to your religion or you do not. How you think you can be able to ONLY adhere to those parts of a religion that suits you is beyond me. I love your ideaa of an effortless religion, no sacrificing of ones self, no devotion and total justification for your actions because you have "interpreted" the word to grant it. Gimme a break. You have created your own religion by doing this bullshit.

Wow. You really don't have much grasp of what religion is then do you?