Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France
Quick background

Sunni Muslims: Largest group, they believe the other sects have departed from the teachings of the Qu'ran

Shi'a Muslims: 2nd largest group, believe their sect is very much apart of the Sunni caliphs, but put a different weighting on certain aspects of Islam.

The hardcore Sunnis and Shi'as hate each other.  Because religion is very much a part of their lives, many Islamic governments are led by the hardcore followers of these sects.  In addition, the Middle East's oil resources give access to wealth, but it is restricted to the upper classes within each country.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9c/MuslimDistribution2.jpg/800px-



Here's a thought:
The economic disparity between the classes puts undue stress on a religious-based dispute between the Sunni's and Shi'a's.  Arguably a religious "civil war" has been fought in both open warfare and via unconventional means at several points in history, countries, and from different classes in the Muslim society.  Unconventional warfare has been a direct result of innovations due to lack of resources from the lower castes in the societies - a good example of what I'm referring to is the invention of the IED.

So given the friction between religious sects, the inequity of wealth distribution, and influential leadership able to declare a jihad, what would the Middle East be without unifying against Israel?  I believe that if Israel wasn't dropped on their front door, the Muslim opinion of the US would be much different.  So if Israel & the US wasn't a catalyst for unification, would the Muslim society find another country fill that role?  Does the Middle East need Israel to be the boogeyman to avoid a religious civil war?  Does the Muslim society always need a boogeyman?

I believe that Israel is using this hatred for it's own benefit as well, so it's almost a sick kind of co-dependency.

Thoughts?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire
You mean the same way America needs a bogeyman like Communists, drugs or Muslims?
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France
Sure, now go on.
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6019
They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

Pug wrote:

Sure, now go on.
I don't know about the entire Middle East but Iran certainly get enough mileage out of the Palestinian/Israel issue for their own ends.

The Arab nations didn't just wake up and hate them one day though, that area has been plagued with conflict over the years and the establishment of Israel in such a 'cheeky' manner has just stirred the hornet's nest in modern times. I don't know if your logic plays out properly though, the US is the largest consumer of oil (the Arabs prize asset) in the world and surely more amicable and straightforward relations would be better for trade rather than the concept of their number 1 customer being some sort of Western devil (being that the US and Israel are seen as 'little and large' as it were)?
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6468|Chicago, IL
they need each other, a mutual hatred is all that keeps the state of Israel legitimate and the Muslim governments in control of the otherwise destitute and disillusioned people.
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6019

S.Lythberg wrote:

a mutual hatred is all that keeps the state of Israel legitimate
Please explain.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

I don't know about the entire Middle East but Iran certainly get enough mileage out of the Palestinian/Israel issue for their own ends.

The Arab nations didn't just wake up and hate them one day though, that area has been plagued with conflict over the years and the establishment of Israel in such a 'cheeky' manner has just stirred the hornet's nest in modern times. I don't know if your logic plays out properly though, the US is the largest consumer of oil (the Arabs prize asset) in the world and surely more amicable and straightforward relations would be better for trade rather than the concept of their number 1 customer being some sort of Western devil (being that the US and Israel are seen as 'little and large' as it were)?
To clarify, I'm referring to intra-Muslim skirmishes over history, the socio-economic climate of the region, and the power of the religious-based governments.  And asking the question "what if Islam never hated Israel & the US"? What would happen then?

Some of these countries are going to be running out of oil within 10 years (example: Syria imports oil), and I don't see the economic infrastructure investments that we should see as the economy switches over from oil.  At that time, my guess is the US will be reluctant participant in the area (see Somalia).

In absence of Satan, with the Middle East finally be what it purports to be...the Promised Land?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

HollisHurlbut wrote:

They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
The whole of the Middle east would still be a shithole would it?

https://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/living/dubai/images/the_world/the_world_dubai.jpg
https://www.sunandskihomes.co.uk/country_images/dubai%20tower.jpg
https://www.spaceandculture.org/uploaded_images/dubai-785156.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Dubai_night_skyline.jpg
https://www.pictureninja.com/pages/kuwait/kuwait-city-skyline.jpg
https://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/tehran_metro_station.jpg
https://www.qatarembassy.net/qatar%20gallery/doha%20city/Doha%20city%20004%20state%20of%20Qatar.JPG
https://www.touregyptphotos.com/data/507/414ebay_0981-med.jpg

Do you think the entire Middle East is like the clips you see of Afghanistan on the news?
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6484|meh-land
without israel and us troops for them to focus on they'd go back to killing each other, their second favorite past time after killing infidels
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

HollisHurlbut wrote:

They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
The whole of the Middle east would still be a shithole would it?

http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/liv … _dubai.jpg
http://www.sunandskihomes.co.uk/country … 0tower.jpg
http://www.spaceandculture.org/uploaded … 785156.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … kyline.jpg
http://www.pictureninja.com/pages/kuwai … kyline.jpg
http://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/tehran … tation.jpg
http://www.qatarembassy.net/qatar%20gal … 0Qatar.JPG
http://www.touregyptphotos.com/data/507 … 81-med.jpg

Do you think the entire Middle East is like the clips you see of Afghanistan on the news?
Ahh, this is a good point.  Dubai is an example of a country looking forward to a world not running on oil.  By investing in the infrastructure to attract companies - it is an establish international financial capital.  What are the other countries doing?
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6468|Chicago, IL

HollisHurlbut wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

a mutual hatred is all that keeps the state of Israel legitimate
Please explain.
if the Arabs abandoned their militias, explosives, kidnappings, torture, and assassinations, the state of Israel would lose it's moral high ground, which it has used for decades to justify displacing the Palestinians.

Israel plays the victim role well, and the Palestinians are too blinded by hatred to realize that the best way to remove their enemy is to stop trying.

Last edited by S.Lythberg (2008-07-08 10:47:10)

CommonSense
Banned
+51|5957|New York

Braddock wrote:

HollisHurlbut wrote:

They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
The whole of the Middle east would still be a shithole would it?

http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/liv … _dubai.jpg
http://www.sunandskihomes.co.uk/country … 0tower.jpg
http://www.spaceandculture.org/uploaded … 785156.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … kyline.jpg
http://www.pictureninja.com/pages/kuwai … kyline.jpg
http://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/tehran … tation.jpg
http://www.qatarembassy.net/qatar%20gal … 0Qatar.JPG
http://www.touregyptphotos.com/data/507 … 81-med.jpg

Do you think the entire Middle East is like the clips you see of Afghanistan on the news?
You should check out the airports in Dubai. They are wayyyyy more amazing then any American airport I have been too.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

Pug wrote:

Braddock wrote:

HollisHurlbut wrote:

They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
The whole of the Middle east would still be a shithole would it?

http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/liv … _dubai.jpg
http://www.sunandskihomes.co.uk/country … 0tower.jpg
http://www.spaceandculture.org/uploaded … 785156.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … kyline.jpg
http://www.pictureninja.com/pages/kuwai … kyline.jpg
http://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/tehran … tation.jpg
http://www.qatarembassy.net/qatar%20gal … 0Qatar.JPG
http://www.touregyptphotos.com/data/507 … 81-med.jpg

Do you think the entire Middle East is like the clips you see of Afghanistan on the news?
Ahh, this is a good point.  Dubai is an example of a country looking forward to a world not running on oil.  By investing in the infrastructure to attract companies - it is an establish international financial capital.  What are the other countries doing?
The pictures there include shots of Doha, Tehran, Dubai, Kuwait and Cairo. I think a lot of people think the UAE is the only Middle Eastern country with nice cities.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

The pictures there include shots of Doha, Tehran, Dubai, Kuwait and Cairo. I think a lot of people think the UAE is the only Middle Eastern country with nice cities.
Nice cities are nice.  Per capita income versus GDP is the issue.  Dubai's & Kuwait's per capita is well above = sharing wealth.  Egypt & Iran per capita is well above = income disparity.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6550|Global Command

Blehm98 wrote:

without israel and us troops for them to focus on they'd go back to killing each other, their second favorite past time after killing infidels
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6642|London, England
That's a stupid map, alot of those countries are labelled as muslim but have minority populations. France is 10% Muslim yet isn't highlighted in green on that map, and that 10% is higher than some of those countries labelled as muslim on that map.

Ignorance ftl.

A more appropriate map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Muslim_distribution.png

As for the question in hand, no of course they don't. But governments and nations need things like Israel/Terrorists to keep hold of power

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-07-08 11:24:03)

Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

That's a stupid map, alot of those countries are labelled as muslim but have minority populations. France is 10% Muslim yet isn't highlighted in green on that map, and that 10% is higher than some of those countries labelled as muslim on that map.

Ignorance ftl.

A more appropriate map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … bution.png

As for the question in hand, no of course they don't. But governments and nations need things like Israel/Terrorists to keep hold of power
You know they show different things right?  Mainly a muslim majority and only two sects of Islam...
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6642|London, England
Yes I know. I'm just wondering why countries with minority muslim populations are being shown as green on that map, yet it isn't the case for Europe. Where countries like France have 10% Muslim population.

Kinda stupid really. And it's a false map. That's all I'm pointing out. If it's simply talking about Muslim distribution and what sect they belong to then the whole world should be green.

Because pretty much every country in the world has a Muslim population.

And the reason I care is because that map makes it look like Islam is bigger than it is, it looks like something you'd see on certain animal named broadcasting stations

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-07-08 11:38:42)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6737

Braddock wrote:

HollisHurlbut wrote:

They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
The whole of the Middle east would still be a shithole would it?

http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/liv … _dubai.jpg
http://www.sunandskihomes.co.uk/country … 0tower.jpg
http://www.spaceandculture.org/uploaded … 785156.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … kyline.jpg
http://www.pictureninja.com/pages/kuwai … kyline.jpg
http://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/tehran … tation.jpg
http://www.qatarembassy.net/qatar%20gal … 0Qatar.JPG
http://www.touregyptphotos.com/data/507 … 81-med.jpg

Do you think the entire Middle East is like the clips you see of Afghanistan on the news?
Once city out of how many?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

S.Lythberg wrote:

if the Arabs abandoned their militias, explosives, kidnappings, torture, and assassinations, the state of Israel would lose it's moral high ground, which it has used for decades to justify displacing the Palestinians.

Israel plays the victim role well, and the Palestinians are too blinded by hatred to realize that the best way to remove their enemy is to stop trying.
Lol, in your world maybe. Israel have never had the moral high ground in my book, the general perspective in Europe would be that the Palestinians are the ones who have been wronged. Although the majority of the tactics used by Palestinian militants are uncondonable the Israeli's certainly don't cover themselves in glory with their heavy-handed forms of collective punishment...they draw as much ire here in Europe as the militants.

The US are pretty much the only major power that swallows the whole 'Israel is the victim' line and that's largely thanks to very biased reporting by the likes of FOX and others.

And could you please explain exactly how have Israel justified displacing the Palestinians?
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6484|meh-land

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

And the reason I care is because that map makes it look like Islam is bigger than it is, it looks like something you'd see on certain animal named broadcasting stations
one billion people is quite a lot
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

HollisHurlbut wrote:

They need Israel to blame, I think, and to distract.  If Israel were suddenly taken over by "Palestinians" tomorrow, the whole of the Middle East would still be a shithole.  It would remain a shithole five years down the line.  If there were no Israel, people would realize TEH JOOS weren't the reason their lives sucked and may just do something about it.

$.02, though exchange rates may vary.
The whole of the Middle east would still be a shithole would it?

http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/liv … _dubai.jpg
http://www.sunandskihomes.co.uk/country … 0tower.jpg
http://www.spaceandculture.org/uploaded … 785156.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … kyline.jpg
http://www.pictureninja.com/pages/kuwai … kyline.jpg
http://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/tehran … tation.jpg
http://www.qatarembassy.net/qatar%20gal … 0Qatar.JPG
http://www.touregyptphotos.com/data/507 … 81-med.jpg

Do you think the entire Middle East is like the clips you see of Afghanistan on the news?
Once city out of how many?
Five cities actually genius...Doha, Tehran, Dubai, Cairo and Kuwait; if you like I'll post a load of other ones but I'm sure people might get a little pissed of with each page taking longer to load because of all the pictures.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6642|London, England

Blehm98 wrote:

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

And the reason I care is because that map makes it look like Islam is bigger than it is, it looks like something you'd see on certain animal named broadcasting stations
one billion people is quite a lot
That map makes it look like two billion+
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6563|Texas - Bigger than France

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Yes I know. I'm just wondering why countries with minority muslim populations are being shown as green on that map, yet it isn't the case for Europe. Where countries like France have 10% Muslim population.

Kinda stupid really. And it's a false map. That's all I'm pointing out. If it's simply talking about Muslim distribution and what sect they belong to then the whole world should be green.

Because pretty much every country in the world has a Muslim population.

And the reason I care is because that map makes it look like Islam is bigger than it is, it looks like something you'd see on certain animal named broadcasting stations
Well, your map makes Greenland look like it's the same size as the US.















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