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2006-01-18 12:33:27
Esker
Member
+1|6980
Well if the launcher only bounces at close range then that would be fine I suppose but if it bounces regardless of distance it's going to make long range shots much harder.

The shots it's going to really impact are when you're attempting to kill someone behind an object, say for instance someone is lying down behind a sand bag, and there's a wall behind them (like on some of the CP in Sharqi Peninsula) your grenade is likely to bounce off the wall and blow up outside, missing the guy you'd normally hit who is now going to be alerted and probably move. You'll have to fire it in such a way that it doesn't bounce out again and by the time you've done that one of your teammates will have mowed you down in a hummer.

They've not really explained enough about the bounce, other than "Hey the grenade launcher bounce".

I would still prefer it to simply bury itself in the ground and not go off if it's fired within a certain range that would stop the idiots firing it at their feet.
2006-01-18 12:57:35
topal63
. . .
+533|6972

BigBalls wrote:

In normal pubbie servers it may not be assault...but only because there is now a stigma of "no skill" attached to the class.  I'm not saying it's right but honestly how many folks to you really see using that "upgraded" g3?
. . .
In public servers - I see medics played more than any other class, but that is a visual approximation (feel) not an actual number. And yes I see the G3 used a LOT. But as far as the idea of it being a "stigma," honestly, that's laughable. Most people don't participate in any BF2 forum, nor really give a crap what others might be thinking.

Also as far as stats suggesting skill, that is an arguable point as well:
a.) It is just a game for one.
b.) If a medic revives you in an appropriate place-circumstance, that is one less death in your STATs, in which NO-SKILL was involved in avoiding a death. If you play (squad-up) with the same people and they constantly revive you: your K/D ratio will look a lot better than the number of times you were actually killed.
c.) A lot of kills, whilst playing infantry, come from not being skilled at aiming, but being skilled at flanking and/or reaching a higher ground or rooftop.
d.) A better team will make you look better - and conversely - a bad team will make your STATs look worse.
e.) Etc. . .
2006-01-18 13:44:02
BigBalls
Member
+0|6932

topal63 wrote:

In public servers - I see medics played more than any other class, but that is a visual approximation (feel) not an actual number. And yes I see the G3 used a LOT. But as far as the idea of it being a "stigma," honestly, that's laughable. Most people don't participate in any BF2 forum, nor really give a crap what others might be thinking.

Also as far as stats suggesting skill, that is an arguable point as well:
a.) It is just a game for one.
b.) If a medic revives you in an appropriate place-circumstance, that is one less death in your STATs, in which NO-SKILL was involved in avoiding a death. If you play (squad-up) with the same people and they constantly revive you: your K/D ratio will look a lot better than the number of times you were actually killed.
c.) A lot of kills, whilst playing infantry, come from not being skilled at aiming, but being skilled at flanking and/or reaching a higher ground or rooftop.
d.) A better team will make you look better - and conversely - a bad team will make your STATs look worse.
e.) Etc. . .
g3 = a Lot?  this is a joke right?  i'd say maybe...maybe one person on a 50 man map will use this weapon...on average.

I have access to a few kickers...I will give a look to see the classes folks are playing and let you know.  Now that you mention it I'd be intersted in seeing what the majority is.

Stats suggesting skill is not an arguable point.  I will concede that they don't paint they whole picture and there is more to the game then K/D ratio but at the end of the day the team that kills more people wins.  Point B is about the only one you make with any validity and even it has little significance in the overall picture.  Good players will stay alive longer to let folks spawn on them more ...or clear more people out before they go down allowing their squad to mop up and rez with a greater frequency.
2006-01-18 19:23:35
Darth_Fleder
Mod from the Church of the Painful Truth
+533|7060|Orlando, FL - Age 43

BigBalls wrote:

To be fair I'd say both of your points are valid.  Some folks will definately be impacted when their "crutch" gets taken away.  Others, like yourself, sporting a 1.50+ K/D with normal weaps will probably be able to adapt without too much trouble.

But to the crux of the matter.....if you are arguing that the GL is fine the way it is, you simply don't want competive, balanced play.  As plain as I can state it you can not have a one shot kill weapon with a 60+ accuracy percentage.  I'd even say that's low end.....look at Darth_Fleder's numbers.  All things considered I'd say he's below average with the weapon yet still manages nearly 66% accuracy.

Frankly I don't get it....teh_seraphim makes a point to bitch about people complaining (on a complaint forum? no less) and that they should adapt but the same thing could be said for those bitching about the changes?  What's worse do you think?  Someone bitching (granted a lot) about a clearly overpowered game mechanic or someone bitching about it being changed to achieve a little more balance?  I'd say the latter....the good players will still be affective with the GL....I'm ok with that.  Instead of getting killed by the GL ten times a map it'll only be four and those times I might  actually be able to give the guy some props with a "nice shot".
Let me start by telling you that it is also a breath of fresh air to read your posts and say that if it were a little more commonplace than perhaps my defense of the GL would be a little less avid. To be sure, I have taken up the cause driven primarily by the lack of intelligent opposition to it. Most posters begin their opposition by hurling epithets and rendering nonsensical judgments based purely by their inability to correctly interpret statistics. It is certainly a change of pace to be able to respond to someone who seems to have the ability to make reasoned arguments and be able to communicate them cogently.

That being said, I would like to refute some of your arguments with the very stats (mine) that you claim make the play unbalanced. If indeed the GL was truly a one shot kill weapon with over 60% accuracy, I would certainly be in agreement with you.... the GL would be VERY overpowered but the accuracy aspect is being a little over represented and my stats bear me out. If I got a kill nearly seven shots in ten, I would not have a .96 k/d ratio with the weapon, it would be an obviously ridiculous number say on the order of 8-10 to 1. Even a much more conservative number like 4 or 5 to 1 and your argument would carry some weight. If you take a look at the leader board (BFHQ) you will see that the k/d ratios of the GL leaders are more or less in line with the assault rifles at about 2.5/1 (with one notable exception).  The top twenty snipers seem to enjoy a consistently high k/d ratio as well. As for my accuracy being at the low end, my accuracy with the weapon is right in line with the top twenty GL users so your assumption of it being on the low end is mistaken. Granted, the GL lends itself to accuracy as it does have splash damage, unlike bullets, so if I at least get a grenade somewhere close to a target and it takes away a single bar of health, I get credit for accuracy.

All in all the way the game is now; the assault class is the equivalent to the tank in the vehicle class. It is designed to take out infantry and light vehicles and the GL helps to accomplish this task. I disagree with your statement that if things didn’t change, we would all be playing assault. We would still need to be revived and we would run out of grenades far too quickly. I have heard some crowing the fat that the designers of BF2 don't see it that way, I have to respond by saying is that I think the assault class as it is now is pretty close to how they envisioned it but have changed it and their stance in response to the incessant whining and moaning. Even with my meager stats I am sure that I will be able to overcome and adapt to the changes so that my enjoyment of the game does not suffer, which more than I can say for many here. Which leads to my next point.

While I would tend to agree that people should be allowed to complain in a complaint forum, there are limits. I agree completely with topal63 when he states…

topal63 wrote:

teh_seraphim, is merely coloring the original complaint (whine) with an alternative viewpoint, and simply suggesting indirectly that: some of these vocal few (unhappy whiners) will not ever be satisified, no matter what changes are made to appease this vocal minority. They will not try to adapt to the game ever, they will complain instead that the rules or game mechanics must change - not them.
… and since these complaint have led directly to a change in an aspect of the game that I happen to enjoy. We have become a nation of whiners to some degree with people thinking that the most insignificant obstacles are giant mountains and are encouraged to express themselves rather than learning to overcome them. Personally, I attribute it to the feminization of the American male, but that is way off topic .

I do say that I have to agree with you completely on one point.

BigBalls wrote:

I will concede that they don't paint they whole picture and there is more to the game then K/D ratio but at the end of the day the team that kills more people wins...Good players will stay alive longer to let folks spawn on them more ...or clear more people out before they go down allowing their squad to mop up and rez with a greater frequency.
My total accumulated stats do not paint an accurate picture at all of my ability (at least as I and a few around me perceive it), which is why I generally reject others interpretations of them. A few of the historical charts that Chuy has implemented give a closer reading. The only true way to get e measure of a players worth is to actually play in a server with them and probably more than just a round or two. I am quite happy with my below average stats because they used to be abysmal, so no offense taken .

BTW, what is a 'kicker'?
2006-01-19 11:15:24
topal63
. . .
+533|6972

BigBalls wrote:

g3 = a Lot?  this is a joke right?  i'd say maybe...maybe one person on a 50 man map will use this weapon...on average.

I have access to a few kickers...I will give a look to see the classes folks are playing and let you know.  Now that you mention it I'd be intersted in seeing what the majority is.

Stats suggesting skill is not an arguable point.  I will concede that they don't paint they whole picture and there is more to the game then K/D ratio but at the end of the day the team that kills more people wins.  Point B is about the only one you make with any validity and even it has little significance in the overall picture.  Good players will stay alive longer to let folks spawn on them more ...or clear more people out before they go down allowing their squad to mop up and rez with a greater frequency.
No-validity, huh? Me thinks you, in fact, did not put much effort into that conclusion.

Gee I am sorry I play SF, Devils Perch, or any other map or server you don't - and they actually use the G3 sometimes even a LOT, on certain MAPs of course, my BAD! (No Joke). I use it to (on Devils Perch a LOT even)! Did I hide some equivocation of an absolute in my statement - covering all game use idea - some weird map-use-player-use STAT? Or was I merely relaying a generalization of my experience that I have seen it used - even a lot?

“Suggesting” might have been inappropriate word choice from your perspective (not sure why?), but it certainly was not the crux of the idea. Nor am I sure why you ran rough-shot over the idea and got hung on a word - then in fact agreed with the idea?

STATs are an arguable point. . . as a suggestion (complete indication) of good-play, as a suggestion (complete indication) of how skilled you really are. . .

A good player caught in the crossfire of 10 good player opponents.
vs.
A good player caught in the crossfire of 10 not so good (or inaccurate, or laggy) player opponents.
Is not the same thing - I know this must be clear to you.

Your kill ratio will go UP when a team is good - it will go DOWN when the team is bad. Along an analogous line - a great NFL Quarterback will have worse STATs if he has no decent receivers to throw too.

I for one don’t think that an actual (real) skill like sniping - is suggested by any so-called decent BF2:game stat, and the like.

BigBalls wrote:

Good players will stay alive longer to let folks spawn on them more
Exactly! Yet this depends on the quality of the TEAM as well, but considering your example, I see another STAT aspect subject to TEAM quality, and not just PLAYER ability-skill-quality, suggested as well:
(Example:) Two equally skilled players. One has a good squad-leader spawn point the other none at all other than a distant flag. Which ones STATs for that moment in time (in that round) will be better? The one that had to foot-it for some time to get a kill - or the beam-me-up-scottie insta-spawn at the kill location?

STATs are an arguable point (as clearly suggesting skill, accuracy, etc. . .):
Is a player with an accuracy rating with a weapon 15.2% better than someone with 15.1%? Or even lower better than someone with 13%. To much is not reflected in the STATs, to determine so-called game-skill with any certainty.

- Some teams SUCK (made of on-line players that clearly SUCK) beyond belief (they don’t move & cap flags, they reject the commanders orders, snipers who make a squad in an excellent position yet LOCK IT!, etc. . .) and YOU are subject to getting crappy STATs if you have the courage to STAY on a CRAPPY or not so good team, but many don’t (me included sometimes). Also I have seen so-called good skilled (has good STATs) players leave a server (disconnect) after a short while - simply because they ended up on a CRAPPY TEAM, even leave when the team was not crappy - just not STACKED. Some players only want to play on STACKED teams - where it’s experienced (and/or + clan-players, or clan servers) against less experienced, lower ranked or newbie players. And, honestly who wants to just play on the losing side?

Also CLAN members often have good STATs, but when they play on non-clan servers, & can’t TK for a vehicle, spawn-camp, base-rape, etc. . . they get owned and/or are not as good as the STATs suggest.

And good players WILL NOT STAY ALIVE all that long when saddled on a team that SUCKS.

Also on some "Moders" servers there is no auto-balance and the teams will, almost always(!), be stacked 40 to 20 against the MEC side. And these same guys will play this server over and over; and have told me when I said, “Don’t you think this is unfair?” they said “So what why don’t you just leave,” I said “Fine, and bye!”. 20 guys desperately defending against the crossfire of 34 guys 3 armored units + 3 more armored units (when the back base is capped). Yeah I agree “STATs don’t tell; “suggest”; it ALL” - what a joke it would be even entertain such an idea in mind, if you don’t fine - but many do.

If STATs were comprehensive and they aren’t, they would reflect ALL the real things that players do and what happens to players as well - they don’t.
a.) They don’t differentiate between a team-kill, an enemy-kill, a friendly art.y-kill, an enemy art.y-kill, team-damage that lead to an enemy-kill, etc. . .
b.) Auto-switched to the loosing (worse) team.
c.) Easy spawn-kills - how many you have.
d.) How many times you’ve been spawn killed.
e.) How many times you’ve been revived or healed significantly.
f.) How many times you’ve actually been killed, discounting the magic shock-paddled back to life scenario.
g.) How many players were playing the same kit in relation to you - in a round. And this is a significant issue - if you actually think about it. (Example: I have been on teams were nearly no-one will choose the AT kit, and the armored units run free.)
h.) Suppressing fire - this is a real war-tactic - is not reflected at all in your STATs. In fact any ammo used as suppressive-fire, or grenade-spamming, or grenade-launch spamming will make your stat.s go DOWN. When in fact this is a GOOD war-tactic.
i.) They don’t reflect how much troop support you received when you killed an enemy, capped a flag, defended a flag, etc.
j.) They don’t reflect how many times you’ve been TK-ed for a vehicle, or been subject to other jerky on-line “that’s my vehicle” behavior.
k.) Etc. . .

Last edited by topal63 (2006-01-19 11:19:55)

2006-01-19 14:22:42
BigBalls
Member
+0|6932
I grant you splash damage does affect accuracy % however, in my experience I do not survive the intial GL round but 1 out of 10 times(roughly).  So a 90% one shot kill weapon with 60% accuracy is still the heart of the issue.

Also, your K/D is below average with the GL.....your Accuracy is fine.  Odd.  And yes...everyone with a lot of play time has much better numbers after they've learned to play.  You can't really use that as a debating point but I do see what you are trying to say and again I was not trying to be offensive.

I will only quote one thing as both responses were very long



Darth_Fleder wrote:

We have become a nation of whiners to some degree with people thinking that the most insignificant obstacles are giant mountains and are encouraged to express themselves rather than learning to overcome them
i think this is key.....I've yet to see someone post a *reaslitic* way to overcome them....it's always "learn to use it yourself".  Then we're all back to assualt again with a medic here and there.  This is not a solution. 

You're other point about whiners......it's true I agree....people will always find something to complain about....such is life.


In response to topal.  I do not own SF so I can't speak on conditions there.  However, You'd be hard pressed to convince me that folks went out and bought SF so they could use the G3 upgrade instead of all the other neat little weapons. 

All of your points are just extraneous crap dude.  Cut all that crap out and join us in reality.....i mean seriously.....suppressing fire?  Being a good player no matter how you define it (great aim...shooting while strafing...bunny hopping...dolphin diving...flanking...getting a high postion....being the quickest to prone and shoot...maybe just being lucky) it all comes down to killing more people than killed you...


Your TEAM has very little to do with your stats.  I don't know why you put such importance on this.  Having a good squad certainly helps...but you can achieve that with as little as two other folks.  If your team sucks and you get pinned down to one flag like your moders example then yes..you're going to get raped...that one round..it happens sometimes but it's not the infantry raping and armor should rape in that situation.  And even then you're talking about a really really lame server.  So yes ....you got me man...stats aren't 100% accurate....the people who play on servers like that are going to be inflated....uncle uncle.

Oh and your NFL analogy makes no sense in the context of this game.....except for the 3 times a game when someone steals my kill and I only get the kill assist.

I don't want to be argumentitive with you but we'll never see eye to eye if you can't simply concede that "skill" in this game boils down to killing more people then killed you.  Sure the stats aren't 100% accurate of your playing ability and sure it would be more fun and informative if they were more comprehensive but the DO say enough about a player's ability MOST of the time.

Oh and a "kicker" is the GUI we use to boot people off our servers.  I did look last night and it was definately  not medic...nor was it assualt (although close)  Spec ops actually was top dog....but that was only one night and I will keep an eye on it.
2006-01-19 15:35:58
topal63
. . .
+533|6972
As far as the idea of suppressing fire - I do it/have done it. I have/do shoot at walls above an enemy troop(s) that I saw go prone beneath the level of a wall-top; and it caused other players to help take out those positions. Also I have seen crappy players miss everything they LOOK/shoot at; when I've been commander; but they did pin them down long enough so that an artillery strike was effective; so it helped.

It's clear to me - you reject anything I state - ? Even if it's something I actually do have seen. It's not so much that your agrumentative - it's that you think I am - when I am only relaying information; perspective. That's fine with me - if you can't see things from a different perspective.

I will tell you another crappy thing I do; becuase I don't care about the: meangless fantasy game non-real not-a-real-skill doesn't mean shit STATs. If I see a straggler enemy player - and every one else drives away - I stay. And try to take him out - even if he has the high ground/rooftop/better position. If it takes a couple deaths I will do it - I don't care - I know it helps the overall round; my STAT's that I dont' care about - no; the round maybe yes.

And oh yeah you must be entirely right, and your perspective is so-real - I must be full of crap!

That's why when I play with good players I get about 50-100 points a round. . .
and
When I play with bad players (a bad team) I get around 30 points a round, and it's all because I am full of crap - thanx for the reality report. Oh crap maybe I am even full of more crap - maybe I am just making this all up - oh yeah that's right - I must be - I am full of crap.

Maybe your lucky and you play on some server(s) in another reality, in which the TEAM doesn't affect your play/points/kills - kudos for your karma! I AM(!) playing in another reality THEN!

Oh and by the way I don't put any importance on any of these things:
a.) An on-line BF2:TEAM
b.) STAT.s - period
c.) Any idea (temporary opinion) I have about players/playing BF2.
d.) They idea that gaming constitutes a skill.
e.) This thread
f.) On-line forums about nonsense.
g.) Etc. . .

And I am not trying to argue - I see your point; but I still don't think STAT's reflect much or anything that meaningful - at all.

One question please(!) what servers do you play on? I mostly play on any public server were there is more than 32 players and an open slot. Then live with what ever players are on there unless they are so bad - and sometimes they are - SO I HAVE TO PRESS DISCONNECT. Maybe the idea of balanced teams is on my mind because I have had the displeasure of being on many-many bad & unbalnaced ones.

Last edited by topal63 (2006-01-19 16:23:52)

2006-01-19 23:09:30
iceman785
Member
+93|6926|Alaska, mother fucker.

FromTheAshes wrote:

Since they're nerfing the noobtube, Im gona noob tube-dolphin dive/bunny hop, and use it as my primary intill the next patch.


I am also gona use the c4 exploit, people are gona be so pissed at me though.
whats the c4 exploit, and how do you do it
2006-01-20 07:39:09
BigBalls
Member
+0|6932

topal63 wrote:

And oh yeah you must be entirely right, and your perspective is so-real - I must be full of crap!
well maybe not full of crap.....but definately drama and defensiveness.

topal63 wrote:

Oh and by the way I don't put any importance on any of these things:
a.) An on-line BF2:TEAM
b.) STAT.s - period
c.) Any idea (temporary opinion) I have about players/playing BF2.
d.) They idea that gaming constitutes a skill.
e.) This thread
f.) On-line forums about nonsense.
g.) Etc. . .
No offense dude...but if any of that were true you would NOT have 100+ hours into the GL, nor would you be posting with any frequency on any forum.


topal63 wrote:

And I am not trying to argue - I see your point; but I still don't think STAT's reflect much or anything that meaningful - at all.
No problem.  Agree to disagree.

topal63 wrote:

One question please(!) what servers do you play on? I mostly play on any public server were there is more than 32 players and an open slot. Then live with what ever players are on there unless they are so bad - and sometimes they are - SO I HAVE TO PRESS DISCONNECT. Maybe the idea of balanced teams is on my mind because I have had the displeasure of being on many-many bad & unbalnaced ones.
Our clan servers...IMA.  You're welcome to join us.  If you hop on TS i'll even create a spot for you if they are full.  Cheers!

 

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