Agreed, maybe I didn't make that clear enough, they are two separate but contributory issues.There are pros and cons for both. GM being slow to react to changing economic conditions is a result of incompetent foresight. Not contract labor.
How much do you make? 32.54 CDlowing wrote:
Ok lets continue the fact findingKarbin wrote:
All right lowing.... I'm calling you out.
I'm one of those "overpaid monkeys".
You want to know what's going on?
Lets try some FACTS!!
1
The cost of those "overpaid monkeys" is 5-7% of the WHOLESALE price on a vehicle
2
Management costs are 10-12% of the wholesale price.
3
Management has and will overrule us on quality issue's. Why? So they get their numbers to build = Bonus!!!
4
Double the price of the wholesale and you get the MSRP. Double at the least.
5
The company I work for has TWO vice-presidents. Price tag for each...........
25 mill a quarter....
Hell, the CFO made 20 mill.
DO NOT tell me that unions are to blame.
You act like WE don't care..
NEWSFLASH.......It's my livelihood.
How much do you make? What is your benefit's package? What is your skill? How long did it take you to earn your credentials in that skill? were you hired off of the street with no experience necessary? And lastly, who got you your job, was it your father, uncle brother or a friend??
Now, will you sit there and tell us that American made products are made to the quality standards of European and Japanese companies of equal class?
Simple....they can't see or plain for the next quarter, let alone the next three to five yearsLividBovine wrote:
I wonder why they weren't prepared for this? http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2025
I never said all union employees get paid the same or did I insinuate an impression as such.Kmarion wrote:
lowing seems to be under the impression that all union employees get paid the same. There is a hierarchy within union jobs based upon skill levels as well.
Last edited by lowing (2008-06-07 00:49:40)
Did you actually see to the end of the Clarkson vid?... "I would rather have bird flu"... such a positive endorsement.Stingray24You can't even tell the difference between a truck and a car? Here's some Clarkson about an American [b wrote:
car[/b] ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29Of-gkNdw
Even Clarkson who hates anything that comes from the stars and stripes admits the Vette is great. "Properly loud", "175mph ... in ONE gear!!!!!", "phenomenal engine", "there's so much brute force, just use the right foot to get you out of trouble", "so controllable", "astonishing car". He compared it to the Ferrari 575 and wondered why is there a 100K difference in the price between the two.
Or if you won't believe him, how about Tiff Needel with 14 appearances at Le Mans under his belt?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L729eQpu … re=related
Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
Alternatively they could make a quality product in the first place and pay their workers a good wage. Do you think that wages in Japan or Germany are low? No they are comparativey high, however they make the best cars in the world and their workers get paid a fair wage ( and companies like Toyota and BMW make great profit). Its all about the product. Bad product, your company deserves to suffer. Unionised labour shouldnt be a factor if the quality is there.lowing wrote:
If the salaries were more in line with the skill education and training, these companies could have more money to weather down turns more effectively without drastic measures such as closing entire plants.
I see, you are just critical of companies that pay their employees reasonable wages.lowing wrote:
I never said all union employees get paid the same or did I insinuate an impression as such.Kmarion wrote:
lowing seems to be under the impression that all union employees get paid the same. There is a hierarchy within union jobs based upon skill levels as well.
I said union auto workers are over compensated for the skill they bring to a company. Our friend Karbin here, seems to have landed a skilled labor profession. I assume as a painter he can take that skill and pretty much go anywhere for work and not just the auto plant.
I am talking about those employees who get paid along the same lines with the same benefits and are not skilled employees and if not for the auto industry, can not go anywhere or do anything.
How much does an assy line worker, or a janitor make at your plant Karbin? What is his benefits package?
Is that what I said?? Oh, I thought I said unions artifically raised the value and worth of its unskilled labor force, and this, being one of the reasons why car companies are forced to lower their quality in materials and standards. A measure to compansate for its lower bottom line.Kmarion wrote:
I see, you are just critical of companies that pay their employees reasonable wages.lowing wrote:
I never said all union employees get paid the same or did I insinuate an impression as such.Kmarion wrote:
lowing seems to be under the impression that all union employees get paid the same. There is a hierarchy within union jobs based upon skill levels as well.
I said union auto workers are over compensated for the skill they bring to a company. Our friend Karbin here, seems to have landed a skilled labor profession. I assume as a painter he can take that skill and pretty much go anywhere for work and not just the auto plant.
I am talking about those employees who get paid along the same lines with the same benefits and are not skilled employees and if not for the auto industry, can not go anywhere or do anything.
How much does an assy line worker, or a janitor make at your plant Karbin? What is his benefits package?
Well, your unskilled laborers have managed to "earn" as much money as a skilled aircraft mechanic at an airline, and even twice as much as a skilled aircraft mechanic in general aviation.Karbin wrote:
How much does an assy line worker, or a janitor make at your plant Karbin? What is his benefits package?
Line worker makes 31.50. Same benefits package
Janitor, or GSO, has been contracted out. I have no idea what their wage or benefits are.
Last edited by lowing (2008-06-07 09:29:23)
While I agree with much of what you're saying, lowing, I'd like to point out that one thing to consider is cost of living. I know that the cost of living is fairly high in much of Michigan, whereas the costs of living in other areas with automotive plants in the U.S. are generally going to be lower. Most other areas with plants are places like Alabama, Tennessee, and Indiana. In addition to this, the amount an aircraft mechanic will make also depends on the area (and the company).lowing wrote:
Well, your unskilled laborers have managed to "earn" as much money as a skilled aircraft mechanic at an airline, and even twice as much as a skilled aircraft mechanic in general aviation.Karbin wrote:
How much does an assy line worker, or a janitor make at your plant Karbin? What is his benefits package?
Line worker makes 31.50. Same benefits package
Janitor, or GSO, has been contracted out. I have no idea what their wage or benefits are.
Artifically enhanced worth and value to a company through union strong arm tactics and intimidation.
An unsklled untrained, uneducated off the street employee can make as much as you, a skilled trained technician....You really really do not see a problem with that?
A small correction: AN aircraft mechanic with 15 years that works for airline "A" in New York, earns just as much as the same mechanic with 15 years at the same airline in Indiana. Exactly the same.Turquoise wrote:
While I agree with much of what you're saying, lowing, I'd like to point out that one thing to consider is cost of living. I know that the cost of living is fairly high in much of Michigan, whereas the costs of living in other areas with automotive plants in the U.S. are generally going to be lower. Most other areas with plants are places like Alabama, Tennessee, and Indiana. In addition to this, the amount an aircraft mechanic will make also depends on the area (and the company).lowing wrote:
Well, your unskilled laborers have managed to "earn" as much money as a skilled aircraft mechanic at an airline, and even twice as much as a skilled aircraft mechanic in general aviation.Karbin wrote:
How much does an assy line worker, or a janitor make at your plant Karbin? What is his benefits package?
Line worker makes 31.50. Same benefits package
Janitor, or GSO, has been contracted out. I have no idea what their wage or benefits are.
Artifically enhanced worth and value to a company through union strong arm tactics and intimidation.
An unsklled untrained, uneducated off the street employee can make as much as you, a skilled trained technician....You really really do not see a problem with that?
For the most part, though, I'd agree that unions cripple companies like GM.
Well that's pretty shitty. NYC is WAY more expensive than Indiana. I used the cost of living idea because it applies to most industries, so I figured that it also applied to airlines. I'm pretty sure it applies to the automotive industry, because most production is moving to low cost areas.lowing wrote:
A small correction: AN aircraft mechanic with 15 years that works for airline "A" in New York, earns just as much as the same mechanic with 15 years at the same airline in Indiana. Exactly the same.Turquoise wrote:
While I agree with much of what you're saying, lowing, I'd like to point out that one thing to consider is cost of living. I know that the cost of living is fairly high in much of Michigan, whereas the costs of living in other areas with automotive plants in the U.S. are generally going to be lower. Most other areas with plants are places like Alabama, Tennessee, and Indiana. In addition to this, the amount an aircraft mechanic will make also depends on the area (and the company).lowing wrote:
Well, your unskilled laborers have managed to "earn" as much money as a skilled aircraft mechanic at an airline, and even twice as much as a skilled aircraft mechanic in general aviation.
Artifically enhanced worth and value to a company through union strong arm tactics and intimidation.
An unsklled untrained, uneducated off the street employee can make as much as you, a skilled trained technician....You really really do not see a problem with that?
For the most part, though, I'd agree that unions cripple companies like GM.
The only thing that is different regarding aircraft mechanic pay is the airline.
Nope,Turquoise wrote:
Well that's pretty shitty. NYC is WAY more expensive than Indiana. I used the cost of living idea because it applies to most industries, so I figured that it also applied to airlines. I'm pretty sure it applies to the automotive industry, because most production is moving to low cost areas.lowing wrote:
A small correction: AN aircraft mechanic with 15 years that works for airline "A" in New York, earns just as much as the same mechanic with 15 years at the same airline in Indiana. Exactly the same.Turquoise wrote:
While I agree with much of what you're saying, lowing, I'd like to point out that one thing to consider is cost of living. I know that the cost of living is fairly high in much of Michigan, whereas the costs of living in other areas with automotive plants in the U.S. are generally going to be lower. Most other areas with plants are places like Alabama, Tennessee, and Indiana. In addition to this, the amount an aircraft mechanic will make also depends on the area (and the company).
For the most part, though, I'd agree that unions cripple companies like GM.
The only thing that is different regarding aircraft mechanic pay is the airline.
Last edited by lowing (2008-06-07 22:58:59)
Don't look now, but if I am getting ripped off, so are you.Karbin wrote:
Well lowing...all I can say is your aircraft mechanic is getting ripped BIG time.
Trades run around 40.30 an hour.
I don't have the break down on all of them but, i know there are different rates per trade.
Around .05c to .10c an hour.
Most pull 60 to 90 hours a week straight time. Any time over 40 hours a week is at time and one half.
I'd say more along the lines that your being undervalued for your skill level with such a trade.lowing wrote:
Don't look now, but if I am getting ripped off, so are you.Karbin wrote:
Well lowing...all I can say is your aircraft mechanic is getting ripped BIG time.
Trades run around 40.30 an hour.
I don't have the break down on all of them but, i know there are different rates per trade.
Around .05c to .10c an hour.
Most pull 60 to 90 hours a week straight time. Any time over 40 hours a week is at time and one half.
the unskilled labor in your profession is making as much as skilled labor across the board, machinists, welders, auto mechanics painters, etc....... If what you say is true, then we are ALL getting ripped off. There is no way, other than artificially enhanced worth by unions, should an unskilled laborer make as much money as a skilled, educated, highly trained professional.
Do you not consider yourself skilled labor?? If so, who do think unskilled deserves as much compensation as yourself. Or are you undervaluing your own profession?Karbin wrote:
I'd say more along the lines that your being undervalued for your skill level with such a trade.lowing wrote:
Don't look now, but if I am getting ripped off, so are you.Karbin wrote:
Well lowing...all I can say is your aircraft mechanic is getting ripped BIG time.
Trades run around 40.30 an hour.
I don't have the break down on all of them but, i know there are different rates per trade.
Around .05c to .10c an hour.
Most pull 60 to 90 hours a week straight time. Any time over 40 hours a week is at time and one half.
the unskilled labor in your profession is making as much as skilled labor across the board, machinists, welders, auto mechanics painters, etc....... If what you say is true, then we are ALL getting ripped off. There is no way, other than artificially enhanced worth by unions, should an unskilled laborer make as much money as a skilled, educated, highly trained professional.
And blaming unions for it.
Well, you're not gonna like this, but it sounds airlines NEED unions, unlike the automotive industry. Generally speaking, the only industries that should have unions are ones that try to rape their employees, like what seems to be happening in your industry.lowing wrote:
Nope,Turquoise wrote:
Well that's pretty shitty. NYC is WAY more expensive than Indiana. I used the cost of living idea because it applies to most industries, so I figured that it also applied to airlines. I'm pretty sure it applies to the automotive industry, because most production is moving to low cost areas.lowing wrote:
A small correction: AN aircraft mechanic with 15 years that works for airline "A" in New York, earns just as much as the same mechanic with 15 years at the same airline in Indiana. Exactly the same.
The only thing that is different regarding aircraft mechanic pay is the airline.
In fact, accepting a job offer in NY, SF, Boston, Oakland, LA etc.... is getting to be the only way you can get hired on to an airline off the street. THe idea being go do your time in these expensive shit holes and transfer out when you have the seniority to do so.
The company sure don't.lowing wrote:
Do you not consider yourself skilled labor?? If so, who do think unskilled deserves as much compensation as yourself. Or are you undervaluing your own profession?Karbin wrote:
I'd say more along the lines that your being undervalued for your skill level with such a trade.lowing wrote:
Don't look now, but if I am getting ripped off, so are you.
the unskilled labor in your profession is making as much as skilled labor across the board, machinists, welders, auto mechanics painters, etc....... If what you say is true, then we are ALL getting ripped off. There is no way, other than artificially enhanced worth by unions, should an unskilled laborer make as much money as a skilled, educated, highly trained professional.
And blaming unions for it.
The airline industry is heavily unionized our problem is we have unskilled labor, cleaners and baggage handlers mainly, riding our coat tails because they are in the same union as mechanics.Turquoise wrote:
Well, you're not gonna like this, but it sounds airlines NEED unions, unlike the automotive industry. Generally speaking, the only industries that should have unions are ones that try to rape their employees, like what seems to be happening in your industry.lowing wrote:
Nope,Turquoise wrote:
Well that's pretty shitty. NYC is WAY more expensive than Indiana. I used the cost of living idea because it applies to most industries, so I figured that it also applied to airlines. I'm pretty sure it applies to the automotive industry, because most production is moving to low cost areas.
In fact, accepting a job offer in NY, SF, Boston, Oakland, LA etc.... is getting to be the only way you can get hired on to an airline off the street. THe idea being go do your time in these expensive shit holes and transfer out when you have the seniority to do so.
If I was in your position, I'd be in FAVOR of unions, not against them.
