Contrast the reactions to Iran being accused of assisting militias in Iraq (calls ranging from bombing Iran to wiping out the entire populace in a nuclear firestorm) to the US being accused (mass apologetics, refusal to even seem to register that the accusations exist and have strong historical precident). Neither the accusations against Iran or the US/UK (the UK have been variously implicated in this too) have been proved by any stretch of the imagination, but the differences in reaction to the two accusations is remarkable.
im just glad the North Sea doesnt have as much oil under it anymore. Or the UK might be the next target of the USA.
No evidence?PureFodder wrote:
Contrast the reactions to Iran being accused of assisting militias in Iraq (calls ranging from bombing Iran to wiping out the entire populace in a nuclear firestorm) to the US being accused (mass apologetics, refusal to even seem to register that the accusations exist and have strong historical precident). Neither the accusations against Iran or the US/UK (the UK have been variously implicated in this too) have been proved by any stretch of the imagination, but the differences in reaction to the two accusations is remarkable.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/Ira … id=2688501
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/temp … p?CID=2721
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … -Iran.html
It's not just the right-wingers:
http://www.johnedwards.com/issues/terrorism/
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/for-iraqi- … has/53218/
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ … _corps.php
British intel says Iran is supporting Shi'a insurgents
http://www.brookings.edu/interviews/200 … iedel.aspx
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
He didn't say no evidence, he said no proof.
A certain Chappelle Show sketch comes to mind...ZombieVampire! wrote:
He didn't say no evidence, he said no proof.
Not a fan. YouTube link?
Exactly. If the US is so sure it can prove all this, take it to the international court of justice and prove it beyond resonable doubt. Until then, it's largely one country's word against the other. US has a bleak history of supporting, funding and arming terrorists, especially in the middle east and south america. Nobody (except possibly rammunation) is advocating nuking the US over it, the same can't be said about far lesser crimes committed by Iran.ZombieVampire! wrote:
He didn't say no evidence, he said no proof.
Oh and here's an article showing that most of the evidence against Iran is hot air and bullshit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 78_pf.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … e19908.htm
So the evidence agaisnt Iran falls apart, but it turns out that nearly a fifth of a million US weapons are unaccounted for.In a sharp reversal of its longstanding accusations against Iran arming militants in Iraq , the US military has made an unprecedented albeit quiet confession: the weapons they had recently found in Iraq were not made in Iran at all. A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was cancelled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran.
In contrast, the Pentagon in August 2007 admitted that it had lost track of a third of the weapons distributed to the Iraqi security forces in 2004/2005. The 190,000 assault rifles and pistols roam free in Iraqi streets today.
In the past year, the US leaders have been relentless in propagating their charges of Iranian meddling and fomenting violence in Iraq and since the release of the key judgments of the US National Intelligence Estimate in December that Iran does not have a nuclear weaponisation programme, these accusations have sharply intensified.
The US charges of Iranian interference in Iraq too have now collapsed.
So - no actual evidence as usual, the US really needs to stop shouting 'Wolf'.
I too had been waiting for all the 'Iranian' weapons to be paraded.
Even so, so what if Iran were supporting the insurgents?
The Shia majority in certain areas would prefer self determination and to align themselves with Iran, why shouldn't they?
They would also like the US out of their country.
The French supported the insurgency in the US, thats how you got your country wasn't it?
Why anyone is surprised Iraq is breaking apart and the Iranians are interested in helping their neighbours is beyond me.
They share a border, they are fellow Shia, its not as if they are unrelated foreigners meddling in a country on the other side of the world
I too had been waiting for all the 'Iranian' weapons to be paraded.
Even so, so what if Iran were supporting the insurgents?
The Shia majority in certain areas would prefer self determination and to align themselves with Iran, why shouldn't they?
They would also like the US out of their country.
The French supported the insurgency in the US, thats how you got your country wasn't it?
Why anyone is surprised Iraq is breaking apart and the Iranians are interested in helping their neighbours is beyond me.
They share a border, they are fellow Shia, its not as if they are unrelated foreigners meddling in a country on the other side of the world
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-06-06 06:38:18)
Fuck Israel
Again, please point to where the US has either attacked Iran or said they will. Still waiting.PureFodder wrote:
Exactly. If the US is so sure it can prove all this, take it to the international court of justice and prove it beyond resonable doubt. Until then, it's largely one country's word against the other. US has a bleak history of supporting, funding and arming terrorists, especially in the middle east and south america. Nobody (except possibly rammunation) is advocating nuking the US over it, the same can't be said about far lesser crimes committed by Iran.ZombieVampire! wrote:
He didn't say no evidence, he said no proof.
That's a bit dated. The caches of Iranian-produced weapons that were produced in the past 4 years are pretty much the exact opposite of "hot air and bullshit".PureFodder wrote:
Oh and here's an article showing that most of the evidence against Iran is hot air and bullshit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 78_pf.html
Well...I guess since Iran said they aren't, that's enough. NevermindPureFodder wrote:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … e19908.htmSo the evidence agaisnt Iran falls apart, but it turns out that nearly a fifth of a million US weapons are unaccounted for.In a sharp reversal of its longstanding accusations against Iran arming militants in Iraq , the US military has made an unprecedented albeit quiet confession: the weapons they had recently found in Iraq were not made in Iran at all. A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was cancelled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran.
In contrast, the Pentagon in August 2007 admitted that it had lost track of a third of the weapons distributed to the Iraqi security forces in 2004/2005. The 190,000 assault rifles and pistols roam free in Iraqi streets today.
In the past year, the US leaders have been relentless in propagating their charges of Iranian meddling and fomenting violence in Iraq and since the release of the key judgments of the US National Intelligence Estimate in December that Iran does not have a nuclear weaponisation programme, these accusations have sharply intensified.
The US charges of Iranian interference in Iraq too have now collapsed.
Probably totally discounts the actual arms that coalition forces have recovered over the years. I'm guessing that the US didn't give the Iraqi dude a 5-ton truck full of Iranian munitions...
That story is completely discontinuous...it starts out talking about unnamed "proof" without mentioning what that proof is, then starts talking about US weaponry provided to the Iraqis. Two completely separate issues, as US weaponry simply CANNOT be mistaken for Iranian weaponry.
That article didn't address any of that, and it was from a clearly biased source. I'm sure they were totally objective in their analysis.Dilbert_X wrote:
So - no actual evidence as usual, the US really needs to stop shouting 'Wolf'.
I too had been waiting for all the 'Iranian' weapons to be paraded.
Yeah...I can't imagine why we wouldn't want the insurgents to have deadly munitions and training. Probably like the Brits had no issues with the French helping the Americans.Dilbert_X wrote:
Even so, so what if Iran were supporting the insurgents?
The Shia majority in certain areas would prefer self determination and to align themselves with Iran, why shouldn't they?
They would also like the US out of their country.
The French supported the insurgency in the US, thats how you got your country wasn't it?
Why anyone is surprised Iraq is breaking apart and the Iranians are interested in helping their neighbours is beyond me.
They share a border, they are fellow Shia, its not as if they are unrelated foreigners meddling in a country on the other side of the world
Oh wait...the French were overt about it and weren't lying to the world about it. And France and England were still technically at war. Clearly the same situation. More logical fallacies.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Your comment doesn't appear to have any relation to the above quote. I was clearly talking about the reaction of the people on this forums, I specifically stated that there has been no clear demonstation of either sides accusations.FEOS wrote:
Again, please point to where the US has either attacked Iran or said they will. Still waiting.PureFodder wrote:
Exactly. If the US is so sure it can prove all this, take it to the international court of justice and prove it beyond resonable doubt. Until then, it's largely one country's word against the other. US has a bleak history of supporting, funding and arming terrorists, especially in the middle east and south america. Nobody (except possibly rammunation) is advocating nuking the US over it, the same can't be said about far lesser crimes committed by Iran.ZombieVampire! wrote:
He didn't say no evidence, he said no proof.
It's dated AFTER many of your sources.FEOS wrote:
That's a bit dated. The caches of Iranian-produced weapons that were produced in the past 4 years are pretty much the exact opposite of "hot air and bullshit".PureFodder wrote:
Oh and here's an article showing that most of the evidence against Iran is hot air and bullshit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 78_pf.html
Your comment doesn't even remotely follow on from anything I said. Where did I base any of this on Iran pledging it's innocence. It's entirely based on the inability of the US to proove anything they say. It says that the evidence against Iran turned out, like the rest, to be inaccurate, inconclusive or non-existant. The second bit about US arms going missing just shown how irrelevant Iranian armament of militias is in comparison to US ineptitude.FEOS wrote:
Well...I guess since Iran said they aren't, that's enough. NevermindPureFodder wrote:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … e19908.htmSo the evidence agaisnt Iran falls apart, but it turns out that nearly a fifth of a million US weapons are unaccounted for.In a sharp reversal of its longstanding accusations against Iran arming militants in Iraq , the US military has made an unprecedented albeit quiet confession: the weapons they had recently found in Iraq were not made in Iran at all. A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was cancelled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran.
In contrast, the Pentagon in August 2007 admitted that it had lost track of a third of the weapons distributed to the Iraqi security forces in 2004/2005. The 190,000 assault rifles and pistols roam free in Iraqi streets today.
In the past year, the US leaders have been relentless in propagating their charges of Iranian meddling and fomenting violence in Iraq and since the release of the key judgments of the US National Intelligence Estimate in December that Iran does not have a nuclear weaponisation programme, these accusations have sharply intensified.
The US charges of Iranian interference in Iraq too have now collapsed.
Probably totally discounts the actual arms that coalition forces have recovered over the years. I'm guessing that the US didn't give the Iraqi dude a 5-ton truck full of Iranian munitions...
That story is completely discontinuous...it starts out talking about unnamed "proof" without mentioning what that proof is, then starts talking about US weaponry provided to the Iraqis. Two completely separate issues, as US weaponry simply CANNOT be mistaken for Iranian weaponry.
The evidence against Iran hasn't "turned out" to be anything. It's still being gathered.
Know this: There is ZERO doubt that Iranian-made weapons are being provided to Shia insurgents. ZERO. The US and Iraqi militaries have confiscated multiple caches of them. Iran provided safe harbor for al-Sadr until he was given a guarantee that he wouldn't be arrested. Those are indisputable facts. The only thing in question is whether the Iranian government is actively involved in any of those activities. Either by incompetence or intentional disinterest, they are allowing it to happen.
Nobody expects Iran to acknowledge what they're doing. No more than anyone expected China or Russia to acknowledge their support to the North Koreans or Viet Cong/NVA during those conflicts.
Know this: There is ZERO doubt that Iranian-made weapons are being provided to Shia insurgents. ZERO. The US and Iraqi militaries have confiscated multiple caches of them. Iran provided safe harbor for al-Sadr until he was given a guarantee that he wouldn't be arrested. Those are indisputable facts. The only thing in question is whether the Iranian government is actively involved in any of those activities. Either by incompetence or intentional disinterest, they are allowing it to happen.
Nobody expects Iran to acknowledge what they're doing. No more than anyone expected China or Russia to acknowledge their support to the North Koreans or Viet Cong/NVA during those conflicts.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Yawn - Four years on its still being gathered? Why can't we see it then.The evidence against Iran hasn't "turned out" to be anything. It's still being gathered.
So say you, with ZERO proof.Know this: There is ZERO doubt that Iranian-made weapons are being provided to Shia insurgents. ZERO.
Who cares? The Iraqi Shia in the south want self determination. Who cares where they get their weapons from?The only thing in question is whether the Iranian government is actively involved in any of those activities. Either by incompetence or intentional disinterest, they are allowing it to happen.
The US give $6bn of weapons to Israel every year to threaten Iran and Syria, and kill Palestinians and Lebanese.
Why are you whining so bad now you're getting the most miniscule bit of payback?
Is only America allowed to give arms to insurgents and destabilise other countries?
Pot-Kettle?No more than anyone expected China or Russia to acknowledge their support to the North Koreans or Viet Cong/NVA during those conflicts.
Fuck Israel
Can't answer that. I don't know why the caches haven't been shown to the world. It makes no sense.Dilbert_X wrote:
Yawn - Four years on its still being gathered? Why can't we see it then.The evidence against Iran hasn't "turned out" to be anything. It's still being gathered.
No proof I can provide here, but the proof does exist. You not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. Join your country's military...then you'll get a chance to see it. And when it's used against you, maybe you'll give a shit.So say you, with ZERO proof.Know this: There is ZERO doubt that Iranian-made weapons are being provided to Shia insurgents. ZERO.
Where do you think the official who claimed "smoking gun" (no pun intended) proof of Iranian arms flowing to Shia insurgents and Taliban got his opinion? From the caches that have been recovered. Again, I don't know why they aren't being shown...could be that they want to keep diplomatic options open? Maybe a carrot/stick approach? Who knows.
Probably those coalition soldiers and the families of those who have been killed and wounded by those weapons. They might care.Dilbert_X wrote:
Who cares? The Iraqi Shia in the south want self determination. Who cares where they get their weapons from?The only thing in question is whether the Iranian government is actively involved in any of those activities. Either by incompetence or intentional disinterest, they are allowing it to happen.
To use someone else's line: "who cares?"Dilbert_X wrote:
The US give $6bn of weapons to Israel every year to threaten Iran and Syria, and kill Palestinians and Lebanese.
Why are you whining so bad now you're getting the most miniscule bit of payback?
Is only America allowed to give arms to insurgents and destabilise other countries?
Pot. Kettle. If no one's supposed to care about Iran providing arms and training to Iraqi insurgents, then you shouldn't care who gives arms to anyone...including Israel.
How so?Dilbert_X wrote:
Pot-Kettle?No more than anyone expected China or Russia to acknowledge their support to the North Koreans or Viet Cong/NVA during those conflicts.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
What, you mean your govt is throwing away your soldiers lives when they could publish the evidence and put a stop to it?No proof I can provide here, but the proof does exist. You not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. Join your country's military...then you'll get a chance to see it. And when it's used against you, maybe you'll give a shit.
Cheney is one cynical mofo, keeping it up his sleeve for an opportune moment eh?
Might be better to stop trying to impose US style democracy on the Western province of Iran and pull our troops out?Probably those coalition soldiers and the families of those who have been killed and wounded by those weapons. They might care.
Uh, could it be the same place Colin Powell got his "smoking gun" proof of Iraqi WMD? As no evidence has been presented I don't take the words of officials too seriously. Maybe some Mossad guy is running around with half a potato carved to print 'Made in Eyeran' on stuff.Where do you think the official who claimed "smoking gun" (no pun intended) proof of Iranian arms flowing to Shia insurgents and Taliban got his opinion?
Actually I care about both, but providing arms and support to Israel is at the root of the problems in the ME. To cry foul when Iran does it is blatant hypocrisy.If no one's supposed to care about Iran providing arms and training to Iraqi insurgents, then you shouldn't care who gives arms to anyone...including Israel.
Uh, the US provided support to South Korea and the SVA? Plus the insurgents in Afghanistan.How so?
The US govt knew very well Iraq would collapse into a quagmire, it was predicted Iran likely to wade in, I just don't know why they're griping now.
Might as well whine about getting wet when it rains.
Fuck Israel
sorry, couldn't find it. Anyways it would've made your arguement look silly in a humorous wayZombieVampire! wrote:
Not a fan. YouTube link?
How is it silly? There's a big difference between no poof and no evidence.
Why not read the references.US weaponry simply CANNOT be mistaken for Iranian weaponry.
'The "lost" arms include 80,000 pistols as well as an estimated 110,000 of the Soviet-made AK-47 assault rifles, many of them originating in eastern Europe, especially the former Yugoslavia. A recent Amnesty International report claims that, in 2004 and 2005, more than 350,000 AK-47s and similar weapons were removed from Bosnia and Serbia by private contractors working for the Pentagon and sent to Iraq, with the approval of local Nato and European commanders.'
Does Iran make its own AKs? IF not how would you sort them out?
Until we have some real information to work with, not vague soundbites from spokesmen, its impossible to do a lot.
If the US really has information instead of sitting on it why not put it before the UNSC?
Fuck Israel
We're not talking about AKs here. EFPs, rockets, artillery, missiles...advanced weaponry, not run of the mill small arms.Dilbert_X wrote:
Why not read the references.US weaponry simply CANNOT be mistaken for Iranian weaponry.
'The "lost" arms include 80,000 pistols as well as an estimated 110,000 of the Soviet-made AK-47 assault rifles, many of them originating in eastern Europe, especially the former Yugoslavia. A recent Amnesty International report claims that, in 2004 and 2005, more than 350,000 AK-47s and similar weapons were removed from Bosnia and Serbia by private contractors working for the Pentagon and sent to Iraq, with the approval of local Nato and European commanders.'
Does Iran make its own AKs? IF not how would you sort them out?
Until we have some real information to work with, not vague soundbites from spokesmen, its impossible to do a lot.
If the US really has information instead of sitting on it why not put it before the UNSC?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X wrote:
Why not read the references.US weaponry simply CANNOT be mistaken for Iranian weaponry.
'The "lost" arms include 80,000 pistols as well as an estimated 110,000 of the Soviet-made AK-47 assault rifles, many of them originating in eastern Europe, especially the former Yugoslavia. A recent Amnesty International report claims that, in 2004 and 2005, more than 350,000 AK-47s and similar weapons were removed from Bosnia and Serbia by private contractors working for the Pentagon and sent to Iraq, with the approval of local Nato and European commanders.'
Does Iran make its own AKs? IF not how would you sort them out?
Aye they do.Wiki wrote:
AKM Cal. 7.62x39 mm (supplemented by limited numbers of AK-47 and Type 56 rifles), recently Iran started the national manufacture of the Type 56 (Chinese AKM) rifle series as the KL-7. Whether this manufacture is under license or not, is unconfirmed at this time
Providing the proof wouldn't stop it.Dilbert_X wrote:
What, you mean your govt is throwing away your soldiers lives when they could publish the evidence and put a stop to it?No proof I can provide here, but the proof does exist. You not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. Join your country's military...then you'll get a chance to see it. And when it's used against you, maybe you'll give a shit.
Cheney is one cynical mofo, keeping it up his sleeve for an opportune moment eh?
So you're saying Iraq is a Western province of Iran? Now your arguments make more sense.Dilbert_X wrote:
Might be better to stop trying to impose US style democracy on the Western province of Iran and pull our troops out?Probably those coalition soldiers and the families of those who have been killed and wounded by those weapons. They might care.
But you take the word of the Iranians seriously? That's the equivalent of hearing glass break, seeing a hole in your window with little Johnny's baseball right underneath the window, looking out the window and seeing little Johnny holding a baseball bat, asking little Johnny if he did it and when he says "nuh uh" just saying "OK".Dilbert_X wrote:
Uh, could it be the same place Colin Powell got his "smoking gun" proof of Iraqi WMD? As no evidence has been presented I don't take the words of officials too seriously. Maybe some Mossad guy is running around with half a potato carved to print 'Made in Eyeran' on stuff.Where do you think the official who claimed "smoking gun" (no pun intended) proof of Iranian arms flowing to Shia insurgents and Taliban got his opinion?
If that's what you think the root of problems in the ME are, you need to read a bit more history.Dilbert_X wrote:
Actually I care about both, but providing arms and support to Israel is at the root of the problems in the ME. To cry foul when Iran does it is blatant hypocrisy.If no one's supposed to care about Iran providing arms and training to Iraqi insurgents, then you shouldn't care who gives arms to anyone...including Israel.
But it's OK for you to gripe about those other things?Dilbert_X wrote:
Uh, the US provided support to South Korea and the SVA? Plus the insurgents in Afghanistan.How so?
The US govt knew very well Iraq would collapse into a quagmire, it was predicted Iran likely to wade in, I just don't know why they're griping now.
Might as well whine about getting wet when it rains.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular