BF2S Forums Free Will vs. Predestination

First I'm not catholic, but I married one.  I've talked about this before with some much more pious people than I.

According to them, Man was given the ultimate gift which is the lack of predetermination in the form of Free Will.  You have the right to live any life you choose without God's influence.  The form of Free Will is your Soul.  So you can choose to be damned.

Then they started talking about the fact Man was flawed and unable to become "undamned", so Jesus came along and solved this problem somehow.

I know that's not clear, but at the time there was a hockey game on, and someone scored and I forgot my follow up question.  Sorry, if I weren't damned with ADD, I'd be able to give you a better answer.

Perhaps someone else can fill in the blanks I had from the 2nd period (Red Wings won...woot).

lowing wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Very true, but in order to live logically, we should only believe in that which can be empirically proven.

So, we shouldn't believe in religion?

nope, religion is an excuse and a crutch for personal responsibilty for our own actions, or lack of it........"It was Gods will", "The devil made me do it"

That's true, but I was looking more at the "we should only believe in that which can be empirically proven" which religion most certainly cannot -- thus, we shouldn't believe in religion

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

the concept of a pre-big bang universe has baffled astronomers and physicists for centuries, and is, in my mind, one of the only arguments that can be made for a god, as science simply cannot explain what triggered the initial explosion of mass and energy (while the "Let there be light" explanation almost seems more feasible)

Through out history, mysteries have been left to the will of the Gods, right up to the point where it was solved.

Right, so once you can explain a world without time I'll accept bagging on creationist.

time is a man made measure. The rest of nature evolves and revolves around cycles, does it not?

S.Lythberg wrote:

lowing wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

the concept of a pre-big bang universe has baffled astronomers and physicists for centuries, and is, in my mind, one of the only arguments that can be made for a god, as science simply cannot explain what triggered the initial explosion of mass and energy (while the "Let there be light" explanation almost seems more feasible)

Through out history, mysteries have been left to the will of the Gods, right up to the point where it was solved.

I think some people just strive for simplicity and meaning, rather than knowing that they are one of billions on a small blue and brown sphere.

They also find some security (even if it is false) in believing that the human race is protected, rather than at the mercy of random probability.

I'll buy that, even though evidence to the contrary is in our faces everyday.

Your OP is my exact opinion on this. I had a rather heated debate with my house mate from last year who has become a pretty strong Christian.

lowing wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Through out history, mysteries have been left to the will of the Gods, right up to the point where it was solved.

I think some people just strive for simplicity and meaning, rather than knowing that they are one of billions on a small blue and brown sphere.

They also find some security (even if it is false) in believing that the human race is protected, rather than at the mercy of random probability.

I'll buy that, even though evidence to the contrary is in our faces everyday.

I don't believe it, just trying to justify why some do.

(I personally believe that the earth is just one of many, nothing special...)

(one of my favorite pics btw, puts everything in perspective)

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Right, so once you can explain a world without time I'll accept bagging on creationist.

time is a man made measure. The rest of nature evolves and revolves around cycles, does it not?

Cycles? Humans comprehend time as linear. Past, present, and future.

Exactly,

Nature does not however, it comprehends, tides, seasons, water evaporating and falling as rain, warm and cold ocean currents, lunar cycles, night and day, dawn and dusk,etc.....Time does not exist in nature.

S.Lythberg wrote:

lowing wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

I think some people just strive for simplicity and meaning, rather than knowing that they are one of billions on a small blue and brown sphere.

They also find some security (even if it is false) in believing that the human race is protected, rather than at the mercy of random probability.

I'll buy that, even though evidence to the contrary is in our faces everyday.

I don't believe it, just trying to justify why some do.

(I personally believe that the earth is just one of many, nothing special...)

(one of my favorite pics btw, puts everything in perspective)
http://www.ucsc.edu/currents/06-07/art/ … -09-18.jpg

http://atinyglimpse.ytmnd.com/

S.Lythberg wrote:

lowing wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

I think some people just strive for simplicity and meaning, rather than knowing that they are one of billions on a small blue and brown sphere.

They also find some security (even if it is false) in believing that the human race is protected, rather than at the mercy of random probability.

I'll buy that, even though evidence to the contrary is in our faces everyday.

I don't believe it, just trying to justify why some do.

(I personally believe that the earth is just one of many, nothing special...)

(one of my favorite pics btw, puts everything in perspective)
http://www.ucsc.edu/currents/06-07/art/ … -09-18.jpg

It's from the Hubble. It's looking at just a spec of the sky. There is something like three thousand galaxies in that image.

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

the concept of a pre-big bang universe has baffled astronomers and physicists for centuries, and is, in my mind, one of the only arguments that can be made for a god, as science simply cannot explain what triggered the initial explosion of mass and energy (while the "Let there be light" explanation almost seems more feasible)

Through out history, mysteries have been left to the will of the Gods, right up to the point where it was solved.

Right, so once you can explain a world without time I'll accept bagging on creationist.

Admittedly, bagging on creationists is probably a futile action anyway other than for just having fun.  The reason why people are creationist is only because of the same reasons I'm not one.

Still I do find it fun to eviscerate the reasoning they use in their ideology.

Pug wrote:

First I'm not catholic, but I married one.  I've talked about this before with some much more pious people than I.

According to them, Man was given the ultimate gift which is the lack of predetermination in the form of Free Will.  You have the right to live any life you choose without God's influence.  The form of Free Will is your Soul.  So you can choose to be damned.

Then they started talking about the fact Man was flawed and unable to become "undamned", so Jesus came along and solved this problem somehow.

I know that's not clear, but at the time there was a hockey game on, and someone scored and I forgot my follow up question.  Sorry, if I weren't damned with ADD, I'd be able to give you a better answer.

Perhaps someone else can fill in the blanks I had from the 2nd period (Red Wings won...woot).

This is basically inconsistent with the idea that God is omniscient, because it implies that God does not know what actions we will choose.

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Are you talking about seasons.. the result of the earth rotating on it's axis while revolving around the sun? I think you need to expand your reasoning. Right now the Universe is still expanding (a result of "the bang"). Every other law of nature says that it should be coming together. So what caused the big bang? We are being shot out away from the where the big bang occurred and we haven't any idea why.

Isn't it because we are still on the outward leg of the "bang"? Won't we then come to a stop, then start moving backwards toward the center of the bang?

Should. But to answer this we would need to know the forces behind the bang. To understand this we must be able to grasp what caused the expansion. We don't.

based on the visible mass of the universe, it should have stopped expanding millenia ago, but it is currently exhibiting rapid acceleration, for reasons unknown