Pages: 1 2 3 … 7

 

2008-05-27 20:27:54
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6402|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

You say god created us beforehand knowing every action we would make. But if god gave us control of our souls than that is not true. Given your beliefs it's understandable the concept of soul would elude you.

I personally don't think the idea of a creator demands that a plan is in place as Stingray suggested.
It all started with this quote.  Kmarion and I were discussing free will in another thread.

I personally feel that, if God is both omnipotent and omniscient, free will doesn't exist.  My argument is that, if God set everything in place knowing exactly how it would all happen, then we're just doing what he planned.

Kmarion feels differently, but I'll let him elaborate... 

How do the rest of you feel?
2008-05-27 20:29:59
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6444|Chicago, IL
Deism, if anything, I'm a man of science, and it doesn't often mix well with organized religion.
2008-05-27 20:30:35
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

I was explaining the other side. As I mentioned before I don't think the belief in a creator requires a plan to be in place. Humans could possibly be a result of the Universe trying to understand itself. We are born from stars after all.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-27 20:31:57
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6402|North Carolina
But how do souls figure into this?  If we are to assume that some divine being exists that is all powerful and all knowing, surely souls are within its grasp of power.
2008-05-27 20:34:44
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6444|Chicago, IL

Turquoise wrote:

But how do souls figure into this?  If we are to assume that some divine being exists that is all powerful and all knowing, surely souls are within its grasp of power.
all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
2008-05-27 20:36:41
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6567|Portland, OR, USA
What's the point of living if free will doesn't exist?  And why the hell would some omnipotent god plan everything out -- what would the point of humanity be?  So he could watch us dance out some pre-orchestrated ballet?  Sounds like a freaking weird dude to me.

I don't believe in a creator, and I don't believe in fate, predestination, or whatever you want to call it.

And if you're a Christian, you better not believe in predestination, because if those two coincide, that means that my loving creator is sending me to hell... nice plan asshole.
2008-05-27 20:36:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6402|North Carolina

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

But how do souls figure into this?  If we are to assume that some divine being exists that is all powerful and all knowing, surely souls are within its grasp of power.
all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
True but...  even if we assume that God is apathetic about daily affairs, if God is omniscient, then it knew exactly what would follow once things were put into motion.  So, despite not caring during our existences, it must have cared when first setting things up, or else, what would be the point of starting a universe at all?

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-05-27 20:39:35)

2008-05-27 20:37:12
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

But how do souls figure into this?  If we are to assume that some divine being exists that is all powerful and all knowing, surely souls are within its grasp of power.
all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
Didn't he donate a son to the cause (christian).

Turq.. I don't buy the omniscient part. It could be like a lot of other things in the bible, bad interpretations. The bible was meant to be allegorical.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-27 20:39:00
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6402|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

But how do souls figure into this?  If we are to assume that some divine being exists that is all powerful and all knowing, surely souls are within its grasp of power.
all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
Didn't he donate a son to the cause (christian).

Turq.. I don't buy the omniscient part. It could be like a lot of other things in the bible, bad interpretations. The bible was meant to be allegorical.
I don't buy it either, but I enjoy pointing out the logical absurdities supported by literalists.

I personally don't think any divine being exists.  All that I can fathom existing is perhaps some abstract force binding all matter together.  That's about it...
2008-05-27 20:39:33
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

CommieChipmunk wrote:

What's the point of living if free will doesn't exist?  And why the hell would some omnipotent god plan everything out -- what would the point of humanity be?  So he could watch us dance out some pre-orchestrated ballet?  Sounds like a freaking weird dude to me.

I don't believe in a creator, and I don't believe in fate, predestination, or whatever you want to call it.

And if you're a Christian, you better not believe in predestination, because if those two coincide, that means that my loving creator is sending me to hell... nice plan asshole.
But you do believe in things you don't understand right?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-27 20:40:42
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6444|Chicago, IL

Turquoise wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

But how do souls figure into this?  If we are to assume that some divine being exists that is all powerful and all knowing, surely souls are within its grasp of power.
all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
True but...  even if we assume that God is apathetic about daily affairs, if God is omniscient, then it knew exactly what would follow once things were put into motion.  So, despite caring during our existences, it must have cared when first setting things up, or else, what would be the point of starting a universe at all?
amusement?

and why must one assume god is all powerful?  He may be limited in his ability, or he may choose not to use his powers...

with all the trillions of planets, there are probably uncountable numbers of sentient beings at god's disposal, and the human race would get very little attention.

It's rather selfish of us to assume we are gods chosen race...
2008-05-27 20:41:30
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6567|Portland, OR, USA
Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
2008-05-27 20:42:02
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6402|North Carolina

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:


all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
True but...  even if we assume that God is apathetic about daily affairs, if God is omniscient, then it knew exactly what would follow once things were put into motion.  So, despite caring during our existences, it must have cared when first setting things up, or else, what would be the point of starting a universe at all?
amusement?

and why must one assume god is all powerful?  He may be limited in his ability, or he may choose not to use his powers...

with all the trillions of planets, there are probably uncountable numbers of sentient beings at god's disposal, and the human race would get very little attention.

It's rather selfish of us to assume we are gods chosen race...
All good points...  For what it's worth, I can certainly side with Deism easier than evangelicism.
2008-05-27 20:43:06
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

S.Lythberg wrote:


all powerful and all knowing maybe, but is he all caring?

religions assume god gives a damn what we do, but what if he does not?
True but...  even if we assume that God is apathetic about daily affairs, if God is omniscient, then it knew exactly what would follow once things were put into motion.  So, despite caring during our existences, it must have cared when first setting things up, or else, what would be the point of starting a universe at all?
amusement?

and why must one assume god is all powerful?  He may be limited in his ability, or he may choose not to use his powers...

with all the trillions of planets, there are probably uncountable numbers of sentient beings at god's disposal, and the human race would get very little attention.

It's rather selfish of us to assume we are gods chosen race...
Logic would dictate we base our presumptions around what we know.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-27 20:43:26
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6648|USA
There is no "destiny". We are a world of marbles bouncing off each other in an endless display of cause and effect that ripple through time.

In its wake is called history.



Random chaos, no rhyme or reason for any of it.

Last edited by lowing (2008-05-27 20:44:30)

2008-05-27 20:44:18
FallenMorgan
Member
+53|5911|Glendale, CA
God would have to be really bored if he/she exists...I mean...it's stupid to think everything is all "planned out" and whatnot.  Oooooh I had the free will to change the channel, but MAYBE it was planned by god or something, lol.
2008-05-27 20:44:39
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.

Well some humans..
As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions. Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 8]
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-27 20:45:59
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6402|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.
Very true, but in order to live logically, we should only believe in that which can be empirically proven.
2008-05-27 20:46:18
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6127|North Tonawanda, NY
I think the problem of free will and omnipotence has been dealt with by saying that god knows what will happen, but that his knowledge is incomprehensible to humans, on another level (if you will) or something like that.

If I has to choose, I would rather think that god would know all possible outcomes (as opposed to predestining everything) since that would make more sense to me if you hold that god must be omnipotent.
2008-05-27 20:48:58
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6567|Portland, OR, USA

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.
Very true, but in order to live logically, we should only believe in that which can be empirically proven.
So, we shouldn't believe in religion?
2008-05-27 20:49:59
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6444|Chicago, IL

Kmarion wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.

Well some humans..
As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions. Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 8]
the concept of a pre-big bang universe has baffled astronomers and physicists for centuries, and is, in my mind, one of the only arguments that can be made for a god, as science simply cannot explain what triggered the initial explosion of mass and energy (while the "Let there be light" explanation almost seems more feasible)
2008-05-27 20:51:21
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6648|USA

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.
Very true, but in order to live logically, we should only believe in that which can be empirically proven.
So, we shouldn't believe in religion?
nope, religion is an excuse and a crutch for personal responsibilty for our own actions, or lack of it........"It was Gods will", "The devil made me do it"
2008-05-27 20:53:07
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6648|USA

S.Lythberg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.

Well some humans..
As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions. Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 8]
the concept of a pre-big bang universe has baffled astronomers and physicists for centuries, and is, in my mind, one of the only arguments that can be made for a god, as science simply cannot explain what triggered the initial explosion of mass and energy (while the "Let there be light" explanation almost seems more feasible)
Through out history, mysteries have been left to the will of the Gods, right up to the point where it was solved.

We are still discovering new species of animals here on earth, but are expected to have the meaning of life figured out? I don't think so

Last edited by lowing (2008-05-27 20:55:38)

2008-05-27 20:53:26
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

Hawking tell us God might have bailed on us.. who can blame him..lol

"These laws may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that he has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it" (p. 122).
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-05-27 20:55:00
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6567|Portland, OR, USA

S.Lythberg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Like how the universe came to be?  Why we're here?

I don't know if I necessarily believe in things I don't understand, I just know what I don't believe in.
Fair enough. There are things the human mind cannot wrap it's mind around.

Well some humans..
As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions. Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 8]
the concept of a pre-big bang universe has baffled astronomers and physicists for centuries, and is, in my mind, one of the only arguments that can be made for a god, as science simply cannot explain what triggered the initial explosion of mass and energy (while the "Let there be light" explanation almost seems more feasible)
By the same logic, what was there before god?  What created god?  Many Christians argue that because we cannot find an origin to the universe, god must exist -- yet they say this not knowing anything about the creation of their god, simply saying that he's "been around forever."  The universe could have no beginning, it's no less feasible than the "let there be light" scenario.

 

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