BF2S Forums Hitler was 'Doing God's Work'

Dilbert_X wrote:

Here you go Dil... With pictures for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ … ranian.php

I see lots of pictures of weapons, no proof they came from Iran.

Yeah...whatever you do, don't go and bother to read anything there.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I read it, apart from an unatttributed one liner 'The US has seized numerous weapons caches in the past, with lot numbers and markings clearly linking them back to Iran.' I see no actual evidence or proof.
In the photos there is nothing.
Its all wild speculation as far as I can see.
Even if they did come from Iran, you need to prove the Iranian govt authorised or sponsored it, they could have been sold to Syria, Pakistan, stolen, whatever.

How did the IRA get hold of Armalites and 0.50 Barrets? At a time when both were military only items (I believe).
The President must have had a hand in it, nuke America now!

You keep overlooking the points made repeatedly that 1) nobody has said that the Iranian government's leadership is necessarily involved and 2) that anyone should "nuke" Iran over it.

No doubt the Iranian government is maintaining plausible deniability and leaving it to the Qods Force to handle it. Regardless, Iranian-made or purchased weaponry is being provided to insurgents in both Iraq (primarily) and Afghanistan. That's all anyone is saying and that's all the evidence points to. You are the one drawing further (let's nuke 'em) conclusions.

Interesting that you're not at all skeptical about anything involving Haditha (except alleged coverups) but you are completely skeptical in the face of concrete evidence of new weapons (like maybe sniper rifles) from Iran showing up in the hands of Iraqi insurgents.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Yeah I didn't say that you said that. But your line states that he won the elections, I'm pointing out the methods used to get those votes. You're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with the way it was carried out because he was elected.

Again, I say that..........where?.

Sorry I'll use 'by your logic' next time

ZombieVampire! wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Which he won because he used violent methods.

Your point?

Hitler used similar methods to those Mugabe uses and he turned out lovely jubley. Point is that people who use violent methods to obtain power as leader of a country generally do not have the best interests of their people at heart, and that is suggestive of a tyrant, someone who obtains and holds power by violence and brutality.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

MOAB wrote:

I don't care if you're responding to Kmarions post, I'm asking for why you feel the need to defend it or why you feel you're succeeding in defending it. All you've posted up so far is that not all tyranny is evil but nothing has backed this up.

Actually:

1)  What I've said is that Tyranny isn't inherently evil

2)  Having said that, I fail to see how ancient Tyrants who dealt with crises were evil

Yeah, Stalin killed off millions of his own people during collectivisation in a bid to speed up the industrialisation of the USSR. That was a crisis for its industrial growth and yet what he did to go about solving it was evil. A crisis does not suddenly mean that mass killing is considered un-evil.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

I think have several million people killed because they don't match your view is evil. Hitler did the same thing with the jews, Stalin did the same thing with peasants, if you don't think they were evil in their ways then I have no idea what you think evil is.

Actually, I don't like terms like evil because they're too subjective and illdefined.  Having said that, I've nver said that they aren't evil.

'Having said that, I fail to see how ancient Tyrants who dealt with crises were evil'

You also haven't said why they can't be classed as evil either

Interesting that you're not at all skeptical about anything involving Haditha (except alleged coverups) but you are completely skeptical in the face of concrete evidence of new weapons (like maybe sniper rifles) from Iran showing up in the hands of Iraqi insurgents.

On the one hand if a squad of marines is accused of shooting dead 24 civilians, to have only one charged with manslaughter is pretty lame.
If he killed them how can it be manslaughter? Did a 3 year old pick up an AK and point it at him?
If he didn't why has he been charged?
Its a half arsed pile of crap planned to end weakly.

I will not automatically assume guilt without due process.

Here is some due process for you.
Take the entire marine squad, drug them, put them on a plane for 24 hours, lock them up for five years, torture them until they either incriminate themselves or each other.
Abduct their senior officers and hand them over to the Egyptians - they have a way of digging out the truth.

On the other, Iran is apparently supplying weapons to insurgents with no actual proof being brought into the open.
'Unnamed sources' piles of unmarked weapons, copper EFPs - which I could make in my shed - apparently all point irrefutably to Iran.
If its true the US could be doing something about it, through the UN or whatever.
As no evidence is bening presented I'm inlcined to be sceptical.

You've still not explained how the Irish insurgency managed to get hold of US military weapons, or why the UK shouldn't have bombed Dublin or Boston every time a bomb went off in London.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisiona … mportation
Perhaps we should have lobbed a couple of cruise missiles at Michael Galvin's house, never mind any 'collateral damage'.

Given how many arms the US has supplied to insurgencies around the world, and the US govt knew Iraq would be a 'quagmire' sucking in Iran I fail to see what the griping is about.
The US has 'lost' hundreds of thousands of weapons in Iraq themselves FFS.

Do you not understand that the crime the person is charged with is based on what the evidence will support, not what Dilbert_X from BF2S forums thinks they should be charged with?

Pretty much, which why I'm asking why the Haditha troops have been prosecuted so feebly given the apparent weight of evidence compared with how vigorously the inmates at Gitmo have been prosecuted given how the evidence is so lacking they need to resort to inhumane treatment and torture to get any.

What evidence is being presented to support your assumption of guilt of the entire squad of Marines?

About as much as there is to support the assumption of guilt of random Afghans pulled off the battlefield.

BTW, you cannot make copper EFPs in your shed unless you happen to have a high-tolerance lathe in there

I could have one in there tomorrow, although I doubt a high precision lathe would be needed, probably just a manual copy lathe would be fine.
If EFPs can be made from wire mesh it can't really be too hard.

And you're a metallurgist.

Don't need to be, just need a spec. Apparently plain copper or mild steel is fine.

And an explosives expert.

Not really, just need a drawing or one to reverse engineer. The Iraqis just pack pipes with explosives - doesn't seem too hard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosivel … penetrator
So they can make EFPs from scrap metal and the 155mm shells the US failed to secure while they were instead securing the oil wells?
For the fancydancy EFPs you're probably right, for the kind being used in Iraq your average backyard jihadi blacksmith could make one.
NB I have precisely zero interest in explosives or blowing anyone or anything up, nor do I have access to explosives or any particularly dangerous material besides my Mum's flapjacks. The eavesdropping spooks can unscramble their black helicopters right now

The "US military weapons" you mention are widely available

They are known to have been sourced in the US by Noraid, and I wasn't aware full auto Armalites and 0.50 Barretts were widely available at the time.

The US and UK have a good enough relationship that if the UK actually thought the US had any active role in arming/training the IRA, they would engage with the US government to either stop the alleged activity or intervene with the citizens of the US who were providing support.

Multiple representations were made, with limited action taken by the US govt against them. They are still active and still support the Real IRA BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAID

Could be that soldiers and civilians are dying that would still be alive if it weren't for Iran providing those munitions.

Could be that if the US had
A - Not invaded Iraq
B - Had some kind of post invasion plan more advanced than jump off the helos and be worshipped as Gods
C - Engaged in constructive dialogue with the Iranians rather than threatening them 'you're next'
Those soldiers and civilians might still be alive too.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-06-14 04:32:24)

ut those things can't be undone...Iran can STOP providing the weapons.

Or the US could engage with Iran instead of threatening them, or the US could jsut leave Iraq.

And there's been no "you're next" from the US.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases … 29-11.html
'Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people's hope for freedom.
Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror.'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22631917/
'President Bush said Sunday that Iran is threatening the security of the world, and that the United States and Arab allies must join together to confront the danger "before it's too late."'

If you had typed "I have no idea what I'm talking about" in italicized, bold, pink, caps it would've been much more efficient...but less effective.

Um lets see, I have two engineering degrees, I'm a chartered engineer, I have experience with propellants,  I have experience of manufacturing parts to micron accuracy, I have experience of machining using manual, copy and CNC equipment, I have extensive experience of material specifications, metallurgy, melt flow behaviour etc. Did I miss anything?
It really doesn't look too hard to make an EFP, granted not the complex type typically used by the US military but a functional device to be used as part of an IED really doesn't look difficult.
You'll be telling me next its impossible to make a ballistic missile in an average workshop.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/296409/pa … d_rockets/

And where was the "you're next" implication? There was no threat of violence in any of that.

Uh, Duhbya describes two countries in identical terms, proceeds to invade Iraq and keeps whining about the Iranians 'meddling' in Iraq and describing them as 'threatening the security of the world'.
How simple does it need to be?

You truly must cherry-pick news that only supports your view. This has been all over the news in the US, but I decided to pull the story from BBC for you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7454970.stm

Which is what we have been working on for how many years now? If the US is now saying Iran can have nuclear power for peaceful purposes thats quite a step back - which is good.

The EFPs aren't made from wire mesh.

I was just going on wiki, thats why I said 'If'.
Even if they can't, a manual copy lathe will work to the same precision - or better - than a CNC lathe if you can set it up right.
Any average workshop would often have one.

However, this newspaper understands that Government scientists have established that the mines are precision-made weapons which have been turned on a lathe by craftsmen trained in the manufacture of munitions.

There you go, turned on a lathe by craftsmen, no particular special training for munitions would be needed - just instructions and a drawing.

British military sources believe the devices have been developed in Iran and smuggled across the border into Iraq where they are supplied to Iranian-backed anti-coalition insurgents.

Note the use of 'believed'. They could still have been copied in Iraq.

Maybe they are made in Iran, maybe Iraq, maybe Syria, maybe Mossad are supplying them so Iran gets nuked - we don't know - there is no proof of anything.

I'm sure Mommy's quite proud.

Not really, she wanted a pianist.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-06-15 04:48:44)

Wouldn't it require an original to copy on the copy lathe? Now where would they have gotten that?

No it wouldn't, it would require a pattern.

It says by craftsmen trained in the manufacture of munitions

What training is required to make components for munitions? Its just a dumb lump of copper.
Training could take as much as 5 minutes.

As you still don't get it:
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle … raqi_city/
'Bleichwehl said troops, facing scattered resistance, discovered a factory that produced "explosively formed penetrators" (EFPs), a particularly deadly type of explosive that can destroy a main battle tank and several weapons caches.'

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsart … x?id=49455
'Iraqi army and coalition soldiers discovered 15 weapons caches in Diyala and Salah ad Din provinces, and an IED factory in Ninewah. The caches contained more than 60 mortar rounds, 14 107 mm rockets, small-arms munitions, and more than 60 pounds of bomb-making material. The IED factory contained more than 3,500 pounds of additional explosives. '

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsart … x?id=46727
'Also, elements of the Iraqi police detained the leader of an al Qaeda cell in Samarra that facilitates the manufacture of IEDs and explosively formed penetrators during an intelligence-driven operation July 13. The detainee, allegedly responsible for an attack on a convoy that killed a U.S. soldier, was detained without incident. He is reportedly in charge of a 50-member al Qaeda terror network and is directly involved with an EFP factory in Samarra.'

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsart … x?id=46813
'Also yesterday, Multinational Division Baghdad troops in the western part of the city found a factory in which explosively formed penetrators, the most deadly form of roadside bomb, were being made. Roughly 300 pounds of homemade explosives and parts were found, in addition to a disassembled anti-tank mine, two rocket-propelled-grenade sights, 14 copper plates and two video cameras.'

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsart … x?id=48067
'In Husseiniyah last week, an Iraqi citizen led coalition forces to a building being used by insurgents as an EFP factory, where troops found roughly 10 fully-prepared projectiles of various sizes, including a 12-inch EFP -- among the largest found in Iraq. Coalition forces also seized some 90 copper plates, more than 200 pounds of C4 and other explosive-making materials including TNT, Smith said.'

Have you got it now?
For someone who supposedly works in the Pentagon you're curiously underinformed.

Your argument that EFPs can only be made by highly trained people with special equipment in Iranian factories fails.
Your military blinkers and cultural arrogance lead you believe dumb arabs can't work out stuff for themselves, they need training, outside help to do anything. Do you need to be reminded Arabia and Persia are the home of mathematics and astronomy?

Maybe Iran is supplying Iraqi insurgents, maybe not, who cares? We all know Iran is in the firing line.
You do need an argument which stands up however.

FEOS wrote:

If you had typed "I have no idea what I'm talking about" in italicized, bold, pink, caps it would've been much more efficient...but less effective.

Its seems you're the one with no idea of what he is talking about - funny that. In future I recommend you pay attention when I'm posting my tin-foil hat stuff.

And maybe they were delivered by space aliens, too.

Quite possibly, did they take away the WMD at the same time? The would have needed big spaceships wouldn't they?

Do you not think that the forensics people from the US, UK, and other countries have done a bit more investigation than just wiki look ups to determine the source of the EFPs?

As they are the same people who determined Saddam definitely had WMD, came up with weak stuff like 'believed' and bogus arguments about 'craftsmen trained in the manufacture of munitions' I give their arguments no weight whatever.

Dilbert_X wrote:

.......

Crickets chirping

.......

This is good too.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IA18Ak02.html

Sorry...I've been in France.

I never said that the EFPs could only be made by highly trained people with specialized equipment in Iran. I said Iran has provided the training to people in Iraq on how to produce them. There is a difference. It's not like Iraqis suddenly developed the skills necessary. Someone taught them. Who would that have been?

All your links just show that the weapons are widespread. Thanks for supporting my argument.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Sorry...I've been in France.

Good for you, did you sample any of the, ahem, 'nightlife'?

Not nearly enough time...just great hospitality from the French military.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I said Iran has provided the training to people in Iraq on how to produce them.

Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. Finding EFPs in Iraq does not prove Iranian involvement.
As shown above, there are many facilities in Iraq producing EFPs from scratch - although supposedly only expert metallurgists with experience of explosives who have received special training in manufacture of munitions using high precision machines could produce them according to you.

I didn't say it was the ONLY way they could be made. To produce the type that are being used in Iraq without having a copy to work from, it would require that type of knowledge, skill, and testing to create EFPs of the sophistication seen in Iraq today.

Nice cherry-picking, though.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Even if weren't available, superplastic forming is a well understood process. I've worked with Iraqis, and Iranians, they are a pretty smart bunch.

I never implied anything different.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Whatever you do, don't go and bother to read anything in any of the links.
'The US command admitted at first that the Sunnis were making the shaped charges themselves. On June 21, 2005, General John R Vines, then the senior US commander in Iraq, told reporters that the insurgents had probably drawn on bomb-making expertise from the late Iraqi president Saddam Hussein's army.'
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IA18Ak02.html

From your link:
"The day after Bush's press conference, General Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, admitted at a Pentagon news conference that he had no evidence of the Iranian government sending any military equipment or personnel into Iraq. Rumsfeld, appearing with Pace, said, "All you know is that you find equipment in a country that came from the neighboring country."

Sounds remarkably similar to what I've said from the beginning. No evidence directly linking the Iranian government, but certainly evidence linking Iranian-produced weapons.

Additionally, the sophistication the article mentions is related to the firing mechanisms, not the formation of the copper plates--which has been the topic we've been debating.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its really not too hard, according to this 'expert' at least.
'But as has been observed here, anyone can make crude and simple EFP munitions in a basic workshop. All you need is a lump of plastic explosive and a piece of copper. Shape the copper into a saucer, put the explosive under it, and you're there. Obviously this will be a lot less efficient, accurate and reliable than something like SLAM (optimal design of the the metal 'lens' is an art requiring a lot of computer power), but you can compensate by making it ten times bigger if you need to.'
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003285.html

And again, the copper disk is the critical piece. Since the EFPs aren't "ten times bigger" to compensate, that blog's position is debatable at a minimum. How about you find more objective sources than op-eds and blogs to support your argument? Or can you?

Dilbert_X wrote:

The first EFPs were used by Sunnis? Think Iran supplied them?

Where do you see that? Was it in a blog?

Dilbert_X wrote:

All your links just show that the weapons are widespread. Thanks for supporting my argument.

I'm well aware EFPs are widespread, I haven't said they weren't.
Your argument was the insurgents must have received either actual EFPs, EFPs to copy and/or specialist help to make them.
The arguments don't stand up.

Actually, they do stand up. Quite well, in fact. All your links have done is undermine your position that someone can make them in his backyard with no training...so long as they are "ten times larger" than the EFPs we've been seeing in Iraq.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Probably Iran is involved, as everyone expected when the US invaded Iraq and started threatening Iran.
Cheney knew full well this would happen, watch his 'quagmire' speech.
If you're upset about your troops being killed go impeach Bush and Cheney.

And again, please point out the threats made against Iran. At least those that haven't been voiced by the GCC and EU as well.

Dilbert_X wrote:

but certainly evidence linking Iranian-produced weapons.

So why have we seen no actual real evidence yet? Why is your govt keeping it back if they have it?

Already addressed this. Go back and read older posts.

   

Dilbert_X wrote:

Where do you see that? Was it in a blog?

It was in the link directly above my post. Here it is again as you clearly can't follow.

   

Me wrote:

'The US command admitted at first that the Sunnis were making the shaped charges themselves. On June 21, 2005, General John R Vines, then the senior US commander in Iraq, told reporters that the insurgents had probably drawn on bomb-making expertise from the late Iraqi president Saddam Hussein's army.'
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IA18Ak02.html

That's actually not what was said in the article at all. The "at first" comment was referring to the timing of statements made, not referring to the timing of the use of EFPs by one group or another. Reading comprehension ftw.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The same article suggests the sophisticated triggers must have come from the Iraqi military smile
Sunnis using advanced EFPs with infra-red triggers - yeah I bet the Iranians supplied them.

Did you not read what I posted previously? The EFPs and the triggers are separate issues.

What was that about reading comprehension?

   

All your links have done is undermine your position that someone can make them in his backyard with no training...so long as they are "ten times larger" than the EFPs we've been seeing in Iraq.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Not really, see all the other links about actual EFP factories being found, 12" copper disks etc. BTW in terms of area a 12" disk is ~ten times bigger than the ~4" one shown in the photo - requiring ten times as much explosive.
To make a crude short range EFP capable of wiping out an uparmoured Humvee - easy peasy.

Given shaped charges and are widely used in the oil industry and are closely related to EFPs I would guess the Iraqis are pretty practised at making them, and have plenty of facilities to do so.

'Unlike the ripping affect achieved by bulk cutters, shaped charges are intended to sever targets by jetcutting. Shaped charges utilize special housings that are designed to create a cavity or void between the explosive material and target wall. Employing a phenomenon known as the Monroe Effect, the shock wave produced at detonation accelerates and deforms the shaped housing into a high-velocity (24,000-27,000 fps) plasma jet within the void space. The formed jet is able to cut through steel targets of various thicknesses based upon the void shape and the “stand-off” distance to the target wall. Because the “cutting” efficiency of shaped charges is several times greater than that of bulk charges, they can often greatly reduce the net explosive weight needed to sever similar-sized targets.'
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … charge.htm

To knock up a basic one in an average workshop would be straightforward IMO.

You still haven't addressed how they got the original copper plates that they copied. You claim this is simple, but there is a large difference between reading about it on the internet and actually building an EFP that works. Since you're no forensics expert, I'll go with the analysis provided by those who are.

Dilbert_X wrote:

That's actually not what was said in the article at all.

WTF are you on about? It was copied and pasted from the article.
'A few days after the stories appeared, Rumsfeld declared that these shaped charges were "clearly, unambiguously from Iran" and blamed Tehran for allowing the cross-border traffic.
But the US administration had a major credibility problem with that story. It could not explain why Iran would want to assist the Sunnis, enemies of the militant Shi'ite parties in Iraq that are aligned with Iran.'
Rumsfeld changed the message part way through, as Iran is in the firing line now. Having completed the Iraq invasion its the next step in ratcheting up the oil price.

Once the weapons get into Iraq, who's to say that they don't get proliferated to non-Shi'a groups? The first place EFPs were seen was in the south, associated with Shi'a militant groups, not the Sunni.

Dilbert_X wrote:

You still haven't addressed how they got the original copper plates that they copied.

Already addressed previously, they don't need anything to copy, just a drawing. Copy lathes don't normally use an original to copy, they use a pattern. No doubt there are plenty of CNC lathes kicking around Iraq, FANUCs are ten a penny these days. An electronic drawing would be much more useful than an original part and could be supplied by anyone anywhere in the world. And thats assuming they didn't have the knowledge to make them before the invasion, which they almost certainly did.

Where did they get the drawing and specs? The EFPs didn't exist in Iraq prior to the invasion, and there has been no evidence of development in Iraq (prototypes, testing, etc)...they just "appeared".

Dilbert_X wrote:

If they did need a starting point, as stated previously shaped charges and EFPs are widely used in the oil industry, no doubt there are plenty of people in Iraq familiar enough with them to run a small workshop banging them out.
Or maybe they just stripped down an RPG? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
They use shaped charges and superplastic penetrator heads.
Or maybe they opened up one of the many thousand anti-tank shells they had lying around and went from there?
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj25 … X/HEAT.jpg
Not quite the same kind of EFP I know but it just isn't hard to do.

Those are shaped charges, yes. But they are different than EFPs, which use a flatter, concave copper disk to form the superheated jet.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Since you're no forensics expert, I'll go with the analysis provided by those who are.

As stated before, I bet these are the same experts who told us Saddam had WMD.
As the experts you've quoted made patently false assertions I think I'll ignore them.
The British Forensic Science Service has a very long history of producing reports which are demonstrably total rubbish. Ask any Irishman.

Pretty sure the forensics folks who worked this out had nothing to do with the CIA, so you'd lose that bet. Point out a "patently false assertion" made by any of the experts I've linked to/sourced in this thread.

And again, as you're clearly not either a munitions or forensics expert--or even experienced in either field to any degree--I'll go with those who are. Even though their academic and practical experience contradicts your internet education on the matter.

Dilbert_X wrote:

'Forensic experts today reported observing blue skies in Iraq, clearly proving beyond doubt Iranian involvement in controlling the weather in the Middle East which shows they are evil despots bent on world domination and the elimination of Vegemite'
See how putting the word 'expert' in a sentence doesn't really change it?

What color is the sky on your world, Dilbert? I know you're trying to be funny, but the logical leap (and I use the word "logic" VERY loosely here) is not at all reflective of the situation we're talking about. I believe your statement would be referred to as a "fallacy".

Read:
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ … 67306.aspx

NBC wrote:

Lt Gen. Raymond Odierno, commander of ground forces in Iraq, told NBC News this week that while the technology had initially come from Iran, it had since migrated.

"They initially started to come from Iran," said Odierno in an interview. "I think now we see some of the technologies -- some of the training -- being imported from Iran and probably being constructed here."

"I can't tell you they're exclusively coming from Iran," he said. "I will tell you that all the things, the indicators, that we have here [are] that the materials, the training and even a lot of the funding for the insurgency, for these types of technologies, are in fact coming from or being supported by the Quds force or other people from Iran."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/05/s … it__1.html

Wired, sourced from the Washington Post wrote:

Another interesting part of the article is Odierno's comment on Iraqi efforts to make their own version of these superbombs. He claims the home-grown versions use "brass and copper melted on stoves," and those those bombs aren't effective against U.S. vehicles, and thus have been directed instead at the less-protected Iraqi forces.

"We have not seen a homemade one yet that's executed properly," Odierno is quoted as saying in the Post.

But according to your expert testimony, it's ridiculously simple to do in one's workshop with no training or special tools. Reality's a real bitch sometimes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 47,00.html

Time wrote:

The U.S. Military's new nemesis in Iraq is named Abu Mustafa al-Sheibani, and he is not a Baathist or a member of al-Qaeda. He is working for Iran. According to a U.S. military-intelligence document obtained by TIME, al-Sheibani heads a network of insurgents created by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps with the express purpose of committing violence against U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. Over the past eight months, his group has introduced a new breed of roadside bomb more lethal than any seen before; based on a design from the Iranian-backed Lebanese militia Hizballah, the weapon employs "shaped" explosive charges that can punch through a battle tank's armor like a fist through the wall.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publicat … _id=515950
If you don't like the source, just click on the links used to source the article.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NYT Q&A:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/16/world … nted=print

They have some of the info that is conclusive and are withholding it at the request of the govt

Of course, there are just as many skeptics (like you) who refute anything and everything offered up by anyone that doesn't fit their pre-conceptions.

NY Times wrote:

2) On what basis does the United States claim that these weapons are linked to Iran?

The claims are based on information that ranges from near-conclusive to the circumstantial, American officials say. The strongest evidence is forensic, based on an examination of intact E.F.P.’s intercepted as they are shipped into Iraq from across the Iranian border. Similarly, some weapons parts recovered after attacks have borne Iranian markings or other indicators characteristic of Iranian manufacture.

Other information is based on human intelligence. American officials note that the Iranian-backed militant group Hezbollah used similar weapons extensively in southern Lebanon, and say they have intelligence that Lebanese Hezbollah forces provided training to Shiite militants. They say that Iranians and Iraqis detained in recent American raids on an Iranian office in Baghdad and another site in Erbil have provided information linking the weapons shipments to the Quds Force, an elite branch of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

Other claims appear to be analytical conclusions based on inference rather than hard evidence. For example, American officials say they do not believe there are facilities in Iraq capable of manufacturing the weapons but cannot prove that one does not exist. Similarly, they say they have been no evidence that the weapons are available on the black market.

American officials say they possess other, detailed information linking the weapons to Iran that they remain unwilling to publicly disclose. Some of that information, including details about the weapons’ manufacture and their effectiveness, is being withheld by The New York Times at the request of American military and intelligence officials, who argue that its public disclosure would compromise intelligence sources and methods and could endanger American lives.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Iran offer assurances to stem the flow of high-powered explosives into Iraq from Iran if it weren't occurring?

Out of all the articles I was able to find today, the key argument by the skeptics was that it wasn't Iran but Hezbollah that was providing the EFPs and training the Iraqi insurgents. The fact that those skeptics don't realize they are reinforcing that Iran (at least the QF) is involved is fairly humorous.