BF2S Forums US Ships sitting at Iran's doorstep. Are we on the verge of war!?

Kmarion wrote:

. Make a case for it just being a regional issue (So keep the west out). But don't pretend to be unaware of the obvious supplier to these thugs.

Kmarion wrote:

You switched gears and infact reinforced my point. Argue the right argument. (Regional issues)

B.Schuss wrote:

well, then. I argue that whatever Iran's intentions are, those are regional affairs that should be handled by the nations that are actually situated in that region, with the help of the UN, if necessary.
The US has no business ( sic ) being in Iraq or Iran.

Tada! Thx for seeing it my way..lol.

B. wrote:

1.) the creation of Israel against the will of the local arab population

B. wrote:

that should be handled by the nations that are actually situated in that region, with the help of the UN, if necessary.

Your calls to the UN are very selective.

2.) the way western nations have continuously tried to stick their collective noses into the politics of that region, trying to enforce their economic interests

News Flash: Everyone does it everywhere. They have throughout civilization. Germans should be more aware of this given their relatively recent history. I say this not as an excuse but rather reality.

It would be an all-out war campaign and I wouldn't be surprise if a military draft came into effect.

Lets just start this thing already so I can stop guessing.

CameronPoe wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

the US fails at imperialism in a worse way, look at how Japan, Germany, and Korea turned out.  I sure hope these facts don't stop Cameron from spreading stupidity in the forum through posts filled with misrepresentations due to the alternate reality he lives in. 

p.s.  I am against the war, but somehow don't feel the need to lie to myself and others about facts.

Look at how Korea turned out: a country divided in two.

Germany and Japan declared war on the US - that's legitimate cause to retaliate in kind with everything you got.

Look at how Latin America turned out - all the money in the hands of western multinationals and corrupt politicians will practically zero social justice.

Bang up job on Vietnam btw - the people of the Philippines, Iraq, Vietnam and many other nations send their regards.... imperialism in the modern sense is cultural imperialism and economic imperialism - not like the old style British and French viceroy type stuff. If you don't think the US is culturally and economically imperialistic then you're delusional.

Let's look at other examples: China finally gets its act together to become an economically successful nation without western societal or governmental norms or western inter, Muslim Malaysia gets its act together to become an economically successful nation without western societal norms or western intervention, Russia rises to prominence and wealth again without western interference.

Yesteryear western imperialism was based around combatting soviet imperialism. Today it's just about getting rich or getting an edge on rival nations.

um, South Korea is a free country that is thriving while North Korea is starving. Vietnam is communist and the only people not living on cat meat are the people working at HP, Intel, or Nike factories.  US never invaded China so WTF are you talking about.  Germany and Japan were invaded by the US in war, rebuilt, and are now thriving as their own countries despite American Emperialism you allege.  Malaysia was never invaded by US so I don't know WTF you are rambling about Muslim shit for?  Philippines and Iraq have their own governments and have benifited from US policies.


Are things that uneventful in Ireland that you can't find something to lie about involving your OWN country for a change?  Something important must happen there every now and then, I hope.

Lotta_Drool wrote:

um, South Korea is a free country that is thriving while North Korea is starving. Vietnam is communist and the only people not living on cat meat are the people working at HP, Intel, or Nike factories.  US never invaded China so WTF are you talking about.  Germany and Japan were invaded by the US in war, rebuilt, and are now thriving as their own countries despite American Emperialism you allege.  Malaysia was never invaded by US so I don't know WTF you are rambling about Muslim shit for?  Philippines and Iraq have their own governments and have benifited from US policies.


Are things that uneventful in Ireland that you can't find something to lie about involving your OWN country for a change?  Something important must happen there every now and then, I hope.

You're avoiding the issue here. The west is being culturally imperialistic, fact. It is not our place to do so, irrespective of whether or not it benefits those being subjected to our will. Why didn't Latin America work out after decades of western intervention, western backed dictatorships and in the past couple of decades western-style governments? Both Germany and Japan were countries that had western principles very much at their heart - getting them on board was not difficult - nations that are totally different culturally from us we should keep our noses out of. Look at how well democracy is ticking along nicely in Africa.... You can't force people to adapt and change beyond their time, there was no forcing of Japan or Germany: they were already 'westernised'. Besides, the America of those days is a damn site different to modern America. Do you really believe your patronising application of western norms on Middle East desert hotpots of ethnic hatred is gonna work? I don't see anything resembling Germany coming out of Iraq or Afghanistan right now... Let individual peoples decide their own path. You know fine well that the Iraq mission has nothing to do with 'freedom' or 'democracy' - they would just be an added bonus.

PS The US ANNEXED the Phillipines in the late 19th century (good ole traditional imperialism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine-American_War

PPS I was offering China and Malaysia as examples of nations choosing their own path - not being badgered by us. Having said that, the US, British, French and Russians had lots of military actions and 'protecting our interests' within China in the earlier part of the last century. You should perhaps read up on the 'Concessions' the Chinese royal family had to make to western powers.

PPPS I'd love to see a straw poll of Iraqis on their view of the American military occupation. I'm sure they love you guys. You basically kicked open the doorway marked 'Al Qaeda entry point'. Mr. Bremer also made several hundred thousand men unemployed and unable to feed their families in one click of his fingers. GG.

Bottom line is this: we very rarely do anything unless ultimately it benefits us in the long run - especially if it comes at a human and financial cost. That's human nature and you know it. Do you really think those millions of Vietnamese the US killed was worth delaying the inevitable communist state which, as it happens, is economically growing at an astronomical rate right now under their own guidance. Wanting every nation to be like the US is not very 'pluralistic'. The 'free movement of capital' that westernisation generally entails, certainly in Latin America, just generates enormous gaps between rich and poor where multinationals exploit their underdevelopment and the small existing elite maintain control over all the wealth - imperfect capitalism, too much imbalance at the outset.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-08 13:59:15)

Vax wrote:

You know fine well that the Iraq mission has nothing to do with 'freedom' or 'democracy' - they would just be an added bonus.

Who are you claiming to speak for ?

The people who planned the war would disagree; it had everything to do with democracy and freedom. The vision was to liberate and help rebuild and democratize Iraq, with the hope being that Iraq would become successful, liberal, and in the end, less of a  future threat. That hope extended to a possible domino effect where the people living under other despotic regimes in the neighborhood would see the example (successful and free Iraq) and it would inspire them to move in a similar direction.

Whether you believe differently is irrelevant, that IS what the mission was about. My source on that is the people who planned it. As ludicrous and naiive as it sounds to you, it's the truth.

Now the fact that the operation does not appear to be successful to that end, and that many things that were mismanaged, screwed up, misplanned, poorly implemented, etc etc has nothing to do with the original intent. 

If anything, the strategic goal of "controlling the oil" or "getting a foothold in the region" (permanent bases?) were in fact, the "added bonus" 

I know you think I must be nuts for saying that. But think about it, if it was Only about Oil, or strategic positioning, why bother with Saddam ?
Why not just put him in our pocket, (we could do it, we worked with him before right ?) make some deals fatter than what the Russians or the Chinese could offer him, have our oil AND our control, by working THROUGH Saddam --all avoiding a costly ground invasion and a painful, deadly occupation.
People say "well Saddam wouldn't roll over, he would't play by the rules" WE were making the rules.. IF we are nefarious enough to invade and occupy countries for purely greedy power hungry reasons, wouldn't we be nefarious enough to keep a shitty dictator IN power, but control him, for the same end ? We've done it before.. It would have been so  much easier.

The US attacking, invading and occupying Iraq pre-emptively, when they posed the US no threat was plain wrong. It also highlighted hypocrisy of a gigantic magnitude that they were invading a country dictatorially run by a man backed heavily by the US in the 1980s. The reality of the fact is that the decision makers - politicians NOT MILITARY MEN - take decisions based on less than honourable principles. Of course the military are given the task of spreading 'freedom' (lol) and that's how it's pitched but quite frankly the US' double standards all over the world suggest that the invasion has little to do with honrouable principles. Let's face it: there are far more needy nations out there than Iraq in terms of oppression and danger. North Korea has a nuclear missile for fuck sake. But no oil and no Israeli neighbour, funnily enough.



You did work through Saddam - and then he fucked with your other buddies Kuwait and you realised he was getting too big for his boots. The US wants no one nation gaining a critical stranglehood over all or most of the middle easts' oil, It has a vested interest in promoting antagonism between middle eastern nations.

PS Some little reminders: democracy in Palestine brought Hamas to power, democracy in Venezuela brought Chavez to power, democracy in Lebanon returns plenty of Hesb'allah parliament members and democracy in Iraq shows critical numbers of seats having been won by SCIRI (the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq) and by cohorts of Moqtada Al Sadrs. Keep 'spreading freedom and democracy' and I guess you'll at least have an open idea of who you're real enemies are I suppose. BTW when is the invasion of the oppressive Wahabi regime of Saudi Arabia scheduled for?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-08 15:45:13)

CameronPoe wrote:

You're avoiding the issue here. The west is being culturally imperialistic, fact. It is not our place to do so, irrespective of whether or not it benefits those being subjected to our will. Why didn't Latin America work out after decades of western intervention, western backed dictatorships and in the past couple of decades western-style governments? Both Germany and Japan were countries that had western principles very much at their heart - getting them on board was not difficult - nations that are totally different culturally from us we should keep our noses out of. Look at how well democracy is ticking along nicely in Africa.... You can't force people to adapt and change beyond their time, there was no forcing of Japan or Germany: they were already 'westernised'. Besides, the America of those days is a damn site different to modern America. Do you really believe your patronising application of western norms on Middle East desert hotpots of ethnic hatred is gonna work? I don't see anything resembling Germany coming out of Iraq or Afghanistan right now... Let individual peoples decide their own path. You know fine well that the Iraq mission has nothing to do with 'freedom' or 'democracy' - they would just be an added bonus.

PS The US ANNEXED the Phillipines in the late 19th century (good ole traditional imperialism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine-American_War

PPS I was offering China and Malaysia as examples of nations choosing their own path - not being badgered by us. Having said that, the US, British, French and Russians had lots of military actions and 'protecting our interests' within China in the earlier part of the last century. You should perhaps read up on the 'Concessions' the Chinese royal family had to make to western powers.

PPPS I'd love to see a straw poll of Iraqis on their view of the American military occupation. I'm sure they love you guys. You basically kicked open the doorway marked 'Al Qaeda entry point'. Mr. Bremer also made several hundred thousand men unemployed and unable to feed their families in one click of his fingers. GG.

Bottom line is this: we very rarely do anything unless ultimately it benefits us in the long run - especially if it comes at a human and financial cost. That's human nature and you know it. Do you really think those millions of Vietnamese the US killed was worth delaying the inevitable communist state which, as it happens, is economically growing at an astronomical rate right now under their own guidance. Wanting every nation to be like the US is not very 'pluralistic'. The 'free movement of capital' that westernisation generally entails, certainly in Latin America, just generates enormous gaps between rich and poor where multinationals exploit their underdevelopment and the small existing elite maintain control over all the wealth - imperfect capitalism, too much imbalance at the outset.

culturally imperialistic
-very creative of you, you are culturally challenged.

Both Germany and Japan were countries that had western principles very much at their heart getting them on board was not difficult
- Japan????  Western Values???? this may well be the stupidest thing I have ever seen you post.

nations that are totally different culturally from us we should keep our noses out of 
- like Korea and Japan, huh. People just hate freedom and democracy everywhere, is that why China just can't seem to keep US citizens from sneaking into their country.

Do you really believe your patronising application of western norms on Middle East desert hotpots of ethnic hatred is gonna work
- not really, but it could if the US is willing to spend billions more and wait 20 more years. This is why I am against spending billions there, you are the one that called the US emperialistic (note, you did not make up culturally imperialistic until I pointed out how stupid this was)

PS The US ANNEXED the Phillipines in the late 19th century (good ole traditional imperialism).
- I thought you were talking about " cultural imperialism " now, which stupid comment do you wish me to take you to task on?  Either case thanks for not trying to honestly cite this as an example of imperialism and just linking wiki so you wouldn't look more foolish.

PPS I was offering China and Malaysia as examples of nations choosing their own path
- yet you state in the next sentence
"Having said that, the US, British, French and Russians had lots of military actions and 'protecting our interests' within China "
- so they didn't " choose their own path " or wait they did or wait they didn't or wait.........  doesn't really fucking matter which side of your ass you talk out of because WTF DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH " US IMPERIALISM " OR  "US CULTURAL IMPERIALISM"

I'd love to see a straw poll of Iraqis on their view of the American military occupation.
- who gives a fuck what they think, they kicked out UN weapons inspectors and thumbed their nose at UN resolutions and fired upon US war planes and went against cease fire agreement imposed after they invaded Kwait and not all countries can be as worthless as Ireland.  Well, except France, Russia, and Germany who were content with making money off weapons and oil contracts from Iraq.

You really need to go hug a tree or something because you have a lot of pent up anger towards the USA.

Last edited by Lotta_Drool (2008-05-08 16:00:08)

Cameron-
Japan had no western values in 1940, they had an emperor.  Japan changed a lot after they lost the war and embraced Western style democracy and freedom.  And thrived just as South Korea has despite their culture being nothing like "Western Society".  As for the Middle East you might note that millions of them are leaving "their cultural society" in favor of European and Western society.  Point is that people like freedom and quality of life.  These things go hand in hand.  It is not Americans and Europeans moving to Islamic and Communist countries in droves.

Cameron wrote: "lol. Who's making the money off weapons and oil contracts in Iraq now pray-tell? Imperialism. Break something, pay yourself to fix it using oil Iraqi revenues. Thieving cunts."

This makes me really laugh.  The US is going in debt over Iraq be time, read the news? read at all?  Imperialism, look up what it means, put your big boy pants on, and then come back and talk.  Thieving cunts???? lol.  Your just pissed because the good half of Ireland's population left you and the rest of the bad half behind when they moved to the vastly superior country of the USA.

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Cameron-
Japan had no western values in 1940, they had an emperor.  Japan changed a lot after they lost the war and embraced Western style democracy and freedom.  And thrived just as South Korea has despite their culture being nothing like "Western Society".  As for the Middle East you might note that millions of them are leaving "their cultural society" in favor of European and Western society.  Point is that people like freedom and quality of life.  These things go hand in hand.  It is not Americans and Europeans moving to Islamic and Communist countries in droves.

Cameron wrote: "lol. Who's making the money off weapons and oil contracts in Iraq now pray-tell? Imperialism. Break something, pay yourself to fix it using oil Iraqi revenues. Thieving cunts."

This makes me really laugh.  The US is going in debt over Iraq be time, read the news? read at all?  Imperialism, look up what it means, put your big boy pants on, and then come back and talk.  Thieving cunts???? lol.  Your just pissed because the good half of Ireland's population left you and the rest of the bad half behind when they moved to the vastly superior country of the USA.

Spittle,

Japan had a quality of life and a standard of living comparable to the west, as did Germany. They sought to retrieve that standard in as expedient a manner as possible following the near annihilation of their respective nations. The countries of which you speak know not of these things. You think they're going to adopt them or attain them with a bayonet pointed at their face? Thank you for reinforcing my 'quality of life' point in your paragraph. People are not being forced to move to the west at gunpoint - they are going there of their own volition - their own choosing. They are chasing dreams of a better life by making it happen themselves. You think bombing a nation to smithereens is the best way to promote your values? Pffffffffffffft. You set yourself back light years in global opinion of your values when you fucked Vietnam and Iraq over and backed state terrorists Israel whilst also backing cocksucker nations like Saudi Arabia. You're all mixed up!

I feel sorry for you Americans. Not only are you being plunged into debt but the elite in your country is ker-chinging it all the way to the bank with these contracts. The lobbyists who buy your politicians. Hooray for democracy!!!

PS Look up neo-imperialism.

PPS Ireland is actually performing very well thank you very much. I like to visit the US the odd time on business or for pleasure but I don't think I could hack it really in the long term: they've got their principles fucked up - you work to live not live to work.



PS Japan still have an emperor, but they also have elections, iPods, high quality cars, top spec electronics, etc. They have an emperor and yet they live by western norms and standards.

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Your just pissed because the good half of Ireland's population left you and the rest of the bad half behind when they moved to the vastly superior country of the USA.

and there you have it, folks...all hail the mighty USA, superior to everyone else...     <----- notice the subtle tone of irony here

imortal wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Basically, the US and every other western nation should mind their own fucking business.

(highlights mine)
I agree.  So, mind your own business, and keep out of ours.

I won't mind my own business when it comes to nations transcending their own borders and exerting their will outside of said borders i.e., not minding theirs. Be that nation the US, Russia, China, Israel or whoever. By agreeing I take it you have realised the error of interventionism for strategic gain.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-09 01:20:34)

M.O.A.B wrote:

So, we can rightfully attack Iran because they're sending operatives over the border? I mean they're not minding their own buisness so why should we do it back to them?

Iraq can - but not the coalition. The coalition shouldn't be there. Every nation has a right to defend itself - the nation in this question being Iraq.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-09 04:57:25)