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2008-05-06 22:31:13
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Their version of a conversation involves IEDs, bullets, and shoulder fired rockets.  That doesn't leave too many options.

Besides...  can you realistically expect ANY country to enter talks with a group that did something like 9/11?

Sure, we've talked with Al Sadr and his nutjobs, but that's only because we absolutely had to.  Al Quida is on an entirely different level of insanity.  No talking is going to happen with them.
The IRA killed a higher proportion of the British population than AQ killed of the US population on 9/11.

You have to put these things in the past and do what is right for the future.

Perpetuating the violence is not what is right for the future.
For sure, but that's why we negotiate with governments, not terror groups.  The only reason it worked in Northern Ireland is because the Irish weren't totally insane.

You gotta understand that AQ has no real interest in a peace that exists with non-Muslims.  Their idea of peace is making all of the world Muslim.

This is why, instead, we negotiate with various groups that help us kill AQ.
LOL

One half of Northern Ireland is Catholic, the other half is Protestant.

Again, the situations are entirely comparable.
2008-05-06 22:34:26
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Vax wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Pug wrote:


Ok, well then give me the magic bullet.  AQ is active worldwide.  Meet their demands....ready....GO!
I've already told you. Hell, AQ have even told you.

Clearly I need to spell it out, right, here goes, follow along with me:

S I T
D O W N
A N D
T A L K
Yay, patronising and at the same time, takes the simpletons "high road" 

You get to ignore the actual question, and seem like the peace loving, sensible type who everyone loves.

Fine
But

So how do you deal with the uh, wahabbists and radical islamists who as part of their demands (since we are carefully LISTENING to what they say) would insist on a draconian interpretation of the faith...which really does not allow for much negotiation regarding the dominance of Islam, and, not much room for dialogue when it comes to "infidels" 

   
I'm talking about the Radical elements, not all muslims
Again, you sit them down and talk with them.

They may have radical beliefs, but first and formost they are human beings.

And believe it or not, most of them are probably quite rational human beings.

A compromise can always be found.
2008-05-06 22:41:40
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6664|North Carolina

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


The IRA killed a higher proportion of the British population than AQ killed of the US population on 9/11.

You have to put these things in the past and do what is right for the future.

Perpetuating the violence is not what is right for the future.
For sure, but that's why we negotiate with governments, not terror groups.  The only reason it worked in Northern Ireland is because the Irish weren't totally insane.

You gotta understand that AQ has no real interest in a peace that exists with non-Muslims.  Their idea of peace is making all of the world Muslim.

This is why, instead, we negotiate with various groups that help us kill AQ.
LOL

One half of Northern Ireland is Catholic, the other half is Protestant.

Again, the situations are entirely comparable.
You really think the IRA and the Loyalists are comparable to AQ?  I don't think so.  Look, I know there's been plenty of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, but Al Quida is on a much more insidious level of death and destruction.

Al Quida has killed more Muslims than it has Americans or any other Westerners.  They basically kill anyone they can.  They have no interest in peace.  At its very core, AQ is purely nihilistic.
2008-05-06 22:41:47
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Pug wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


No you haven't.
As far as you know you haven't told me about Indonesia, Africa or the other 20 or so countries they are involved in.  Maybe we should give them a seat on the UN.

Just want to make sure of the magnitude of what you are proposing.
Now you're just repeating yourself.

As I said last time:

Maybe.

Would that not be better than having more innocent lives lost?
Riiiiiight.  So 20 countries are going to agree?

Ireland isn't relevant at all.  It's isolated compared to the worldwide reach of AQ.  And like I said, Ireland represents a rarity in history.

Are you really believing that the US doesn't know what AQ wants?  If there was any room for negotiation, don't you think there would be ANY indication these negotiations are possible?  If so, then why haven't they happened?

Riiight...because of some of the same reasons I've laid out for you.
2008-05-06 22:44:51
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


For sure, but that's why we negotiate with governments, not terror groups.  The only reason it worked in Northern Ireland is because the Irish weren't totally insane.

You gotta understand that AQ has no real interest in a peace that exists with non-Muslims.  Their idea of peace is making all of the world Muslim.

This is why, instead, we negotiate with various groups that help us kill AQ.
LOL

One half of Northern Ireland is Catholic, the other half is Protestant.

Again, the situations are entirely comparable.
You really think the IRA and the Loyalists are comparable to AQ?  I don't think so.  Look, I know there's been plenty of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, but Al Quida is on a much more insidious level of death and destruction.

Al Quida has killed more Muslims than it has Americans or any other Westerners.  They basically kill anyone they can.  They have no interest in peace.  At its very core, AQ is purely nihilistic.
Again, an exact comparison can be drawn - Elements of both sides in Northern Ireland didn't give a fuck about peace - they just wanted the other side dead - they too, at their core, were purely nihilistic.
2008-05-06 22:46:12
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Pug wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Pug wrote:


As far as you know you haven't told me about Indonesia, Africa or the other 20 or so countries they are involved in.  Maybe we should give them a seat on the UN.

Just want to make sure of the magnitude of what you are proposing.
Now you're just repeating yourself.

As I said last time:

Maybe.

Would that not be better than having more innocent lives lost?
Riiiiiight.  So 20 countries are going to agree?

Ireland isn't relevant at all.  It's isolated compared to the worldwide reach of AQ.  And like I said, Ireland represents a rarity in history.

Are you really believing that the US doesn't know what AQ wants?  If there was any room for negotiation, don't you think there would be ANY indication these negotiations are possible?  If so, then why haven't they happened?

Riiight...because of some of the same reasons I've laid out for you.
1. 20 countries can come to a COMPROMISE.
2. AQ HAVE SAID THEY ARE WILLING TO TALK.
2008-05-06 22:47:10
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6664|North Carolina

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


LOL

One half of Northern Ireland is Catholic, the other half is Protestant.

Again, the situations are entirely comparable.
You really think the IRA and the Loyalists are comparable to AQ?  I don't think so.  Look, I know there's been plenty of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, but Al Quida is on a much more insidious level of death and destruction.

Al Quida has killed more Muslims than it has Americans or any other Westerners.  They basically kill anyone they can.  They have no interest in peace.  At its very core, AQ is purely nihilistic.
Again, an exact comparison can be drawn - Elements of both sides in Northern Ireland didn't give a fuck about peace - they just wanted the other side dead - they too, at their core, were purely nihilistic.
Fair enough, but your government negotiated with the elements that weren't that way.  We're doing the same.  There will be no negotiating with Osama, but there will be negotiations with the Mahdi Army, Hamas, and even Hezbollah.

AQ is just too far out there, so we instead negotiate with just about everyone else.
2008-05-06 22:47:15
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Again, an exact comparison can be drawn - Elements of both sides in Northern Ireland didn't give a fuck about peace - they just wanted the other side dead - they too, at their core, were purely nihilistic.
No, they were not nihilistic.  They had a specific goal which was obtainable.  The arguments you are seeing here is that AQ's are not obtainable for many reasons.
2008-05-06 22:51:57
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

1. 20 countries can come to a COMPROMISE.
2. AQ HAVE SAID THEY ARE WILLING TO TALK.
Ok.  Talk to them then.

I'm sure that the 20 countries will compromise with the terrorists.  ***Crosses fingers***

2008-05-06 22:57:26
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Turquoise wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


You really think the IRA and the Loyalists are comparable to AQ?  I don't think so.  Look, I know there's been plenty of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, but Al Quida is on a much more insidious level of death and destruction.

Al Quida has killed more Muslims than it has Americans or any other Westerners.  They basically kill anyone they can.  They have no interest in peace.  At its very core, AQ is purely nihilistic.
Again, an exact comparison can be drawn - Elements of both sides in Northern Ireland didn't give a fuck about peace - they just wanted the other side dead - they too, at their core, were purely nihilistic.
Fair enough, but your government negotiated with the elements that weren't that way.  We're doing the same.  There will be no negotiating with Osama, but there will be negotiations with the Mahdi Army, Hamas, and even Hezbollah.

AQ is just too far out there, so we instead negotiate with just about everyone else.
That's were you're wrong. We negotiated with everyone.
2008-05-06 22:58:46
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Pug wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Again, an exact comparison can be drawn - Elements of both sides in Northern Ireland didn't give a fuck about peace - they just wanted the other side dead - they too, at their core, were purely nihilistic.
No, they were not nihilistic.  They had a specific goal which was obtainable.  The arguments you are seeing here is that AQ's are not obtainable for many reasons.
AQ has a specific goal which, if they got their way, is entirely obtainable.

Again, there really is no difference.
2008-05-06 23:11:46
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Pug wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Again, an exact comparison can be drawn - Elements of both sides in Northern Ireland didn't give a fuck about peace - they just wanted the other side dead - they too, at their core, were purely nihilistic.
No, they were not nihilistic.  They had a specific goal which was obtainable.  The arguments you are seeing here is that AQ's are not obtainable for many reasons.
AQ has a specific goal which, if they got their way, is entirely obtainable.

Again, there really is no difference.
Logically, "if they got their way" = "is entirely obtainable".

But you're point is the negotiations would be the magic bullet.  I've laid out plenty of reasons why 1) negotiations are unlikely to occur and 2) if they do occur, the result will be failure.

And since you know, what is AQ's specific goal?  And why do you think its obtainable?
2008-05-06 23:25:05
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Pug wrote:

And since you know, what is AQ's specific goal?  And why do you think its obtainable?
If I am to believe what I read, I believe it's something like "to lift the word of God, to make His religion victorious".

I.e. to spread the Islamic faith to the whole world.

Why is it obtainable? Everything is obtainable if you're willing to take the neccessary actions.


In AQ's case, the neccessary actions are 'by any means, including violence'.


In the US's case, the neccessary actions are 'sitting round the negotiating table'.
2008-05-06 23:35:44
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Pug wrote:

And since you know, what is AQ's specific goal?  And why do you think its obtainable?
If I am to believe what I read, I believe it's something like "to lift the word of God, to make His religion victorious".

I.e. to spread the Islamic faith to the whole world.

Why is it obtainable? Everything is obtainable if you're willing to take the neccessary actions.


In AQ's case, the neccessary actions are 'by any means, including violence'.


In the US's case, the neccessary actions are 'sitting round the negotiating table'.
Sorry to repeat ramm, but did you watch the video?  It was a little more specific than to "lift the word of God...".   And what's their goal elsewhere in places like Africa and Indonesia?

Cripes.  You don't even bother to understand their goals before you say we ought to try to meet them?
2008-05-06 23:41:14
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7025|Cambridge (UK)

Pug wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Pug wrote:

And since you know, what is AQ's specific goal?  And why do you think its obtainable?
If I am to believe what I read, I believe it's something like "to lift the word of God, to make His religion victorious".

I.e. to spread the Islamic faith to the whole world.

Why is it obtainable? Everything is obtainable if you're willing to take the neccessary actions.


In AQ's case, the neccessary actions are 'by any means, including violence'.


In the US's case, the neccessary actions are 'sitting round the negotiating table'.
Sorry to repeat ramm, but did you watch the video?  It was a little more specific than to "lift the word of God...".   And what's their goal elsewhere in places like Africa and Indonesia?

Cripes.  You don't even bother to understand their goals before you say we ought to try to meet them?
Well, as I said, "if I am to believe what I read" - of course I don't think that's their sole motivation.

But, also, the whole idea of meeting and talking with them is to get a true understanding of what it is that they want.

How can you do that if you never meet them?

Any other way, and you're just guessing.
2008-05-06 23:55:08
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Well, as I said, "if I am to believe what I read" - of course I don't think that's their sole motivation.

But, also, the whole idea of meeting and talking with them is to get a true understanding of what it is that they want.

How can you do that if you never meet them?

Any other way, and you're just guessing.
Promotion has never been a soft point for AQ, I'm willing to bet there is some Osama tapes on youtube...so I think there's a pretty good idea what they want.
2008-05-07 03:40:31
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6670|'Murka

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


Ah yes, it always comes back to that, doesn't it. Never back down. Never negotiate. Never talk. Never sort the problem out.
Point to an example of where negotiating and giving in to terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive for the state involved.
Northern Ireland.
Because the NRA was operating from the same set of morals, values, and mindset as wahhabists?

Perhaps I should have been more clear: Point to an example where negotiating and giving in to Islamic terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive form the state involved.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-05-07 03:46:16
PureFodder
Member
+225|6545

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Point to an example of where negotiating and giving in to terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive for the state involved.
Northern Ireland.
Because the NRA was operating from the same set of morals, values, and mindset as wahhabists?

Perhaps I should have been more clear: Point to an example where negotiating and giving in to Islamic terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive form the state involved.
Islamic fundamentalists aren't trying to fly planes into Russian buildings.

Last edited by PureFodder (2008-05-07 03:52:57)

2008-05-07 03:48:23
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6841|SE London

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Point to an example of where negotiating and giving in to terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive for the state involved.
Northern Ireland.
Because the NRA was operating from the same set of morals, values, and mindset as wahhabists?
Are we talking about Ireland here? What does the National Road Authority have to do with terrorism?
2008-05-07 05:11:36
FloppY_
­
+1,010|6545|Denmark aka Automotive Hell
­ Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
2008-05-07 08:03:10
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6670|'Murka

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


Northern Ireland.
Because the NRA was operating from the same set of morals, values, and mindset as wahhabists?
Are we talking about Ireland here? What does the National Road Authority have to do with terrorism?
LOL. My bad. I was half-asleep.

Obviously, I meant the IRA.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-05-07 08:05:22
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6670|'Murka

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


Northern Ireland.
Because the NRA was operating from the same set of morals, values, and mindset as wahhabists?

Perhaps I should have been more clear: Point to an example where negotiating and giving in to Islamic terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive form the state involved.
Islamic fundamentalists aren't trying to fly planes into Russian buildings.
Your point? Is Russia considered (by the Muslim world) the biggest influence on Western society?

And Russia doesn't exactly negotiate with Islamic terrorists, either, now do they?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-05-07 13:10:44
Vax
Member
+42|6111|Flyover country

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


Northern Ireland.
Because the NRA was operating from the same set of morals, values, and mindset as wahhabists?

Perhaps I should have been more clear: Point to an example where negotiating and giving in to Islamic terrorists' demands has resulted in a positive form the state involved.
Islamic fundamentalists aren't trying to fly planes into Russian buildings.
No,  but they have some of their own problems with islamic terrorists
2008-05-07 13:26:35
rammunition
Fully Loaded
+143|6121

FatherTed wrote:

I love how he never posts again in his threads.

Can't handle the heat? Don't make fucking worthless threads.
sorry to tell you but i have work, college and a SOCIAL LIFE to get on with.

unlike other people who sit on their computers all day living on the dole
2008-05-07 13:28:46
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6482|Escea

rammunition wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

I love how he never posts again in his threads.

Can't handle the heat? Don't make fucking worthless threads.
sorry to tell you but i have work, college and a SOCIAL LIFE to get on with.

unlike other people who sit on their computers all day living on the dole
lolwut

 

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