DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6703|Disaster Free Zone

Dilbert_X wrote:

Drunkface wrote:

You have the words mixed up. Marriage has nothing to do with religion. It is a government institution and the government has the sole responsibility and power to manage, make and alter the rules involved.
Historically no it isn't, any more than Christmas is a govt institution.
That unions approved by the govt are called 'marriages' is a quirk.
Historically? You have got to be joking if you think that argument is worth using.

History started before Anno Domini, before Christianity exist, before Judaism existed. Marriage has existed in almost every culture throughout history irrespective of religion. Most marriages were for family, political or financial reasons and was just a way to transfer ownership or join assets and has nothing to do with God, religion or the church. If you're hung up on the word, then look up a dictionary. Marriage is just a union, a meeting, to be joined or interconnected. You can have a marriage of ideas, a marriage of wires, a marriage of anything. If you think the marriage of animals is unique to humans, you have to look no further then the wolf, or swan or albatross or a host of other animals which pick a single mate for life and live together in unison.

Marriage is nothing more then 2 people agreeing to pool there assets and live together as a couple. All the government does it makes that agreement legally binding. All religion does is gives some people the idea that a higher power has rationalised their own decision.
TimmmmaaaaH
Damn, I... had something for this
+725|6461|Brisbane, Australia

Dilbert_X wrote:

No-one wins or loses, least of all gays, its wholly pointless to be getting hung up on a single word and demonstrates how trivial the 'Greens' and the ALP are.
What the fuck does this mean? And what the hell was the "gay marxist" crap on the last page? How are the Greens and the ALP trivial in any way?

The greens are the only unified left voice in Australian politics (with the ALP at least having left faction(s) in their party although far from the majority). If you meant trivial more in a "pedantic over the meaning of marriage" then whatever, you have made it pretty clear you prefer the status quo of discrimination against homosexuals. If it is wholly symbolic or whatever then why not just pass it and be done with it?
https://bf3s.com/sigs/5e6a35c97adb20771c7b713312c0307c23a7a36a.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
The Greens 'unified voice' is a ragbag of gay fruitcakes and marxists, they are anything but 'green' and I support the green movement.
you have made it pretty clear you prefer the status quo of discrimination against homosexuals.
What discrimination? They have some different words on their union documents, waah waaah.
If it is wholly symbolic or whatever then why not just pass it and be done with it?
Because it was a specific election issue which the ALP has done an about face on, its not so simple to just do that.
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Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6796|Noizyland

Dilbert I'd suggest you stop digging yourself into this hole, it's not doing you any favours.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
Labor were elected with a specific pledge not to do this IIRC, Gillard specifically.
Its not so simple to just sell out and think nothing of it.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6796|Noizyland

Gillard only said that she personally didn't support gay marriage and at the time the Labor Party's stance was to not push for it. However the push for supporting same-sex marriage has been going on in the background for some time now and at the recent ALP National Conference, (i.e. the time when official party policy is debated and decided on,) there was a strong push for Labor's policy to be one of supporting same-sex marriage. It was never an election promise a'la the "there will never be a carbon tax under a government I lead" comment. Also you keep saying it's irrelevant and those who care about the issue should change their priorities - who the Hell are you to demand that of anyone?

You're coming off like Howard Sattler and that is not a good thing.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
Shouldn't they have changed their stance before the election - so people knew what they were voting for?
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KuSTaV
noice
+947|6533|Gold Coast
lol dilbert, you're such a shit-stirrer.
noice                                                                                                        https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/awsmsanta.png
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5200|Sydney
That sunburn on your neck is showing, Dilbert.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6796|Noizyland

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shouldn't they have changed their stance before the election - so people knew what they were voting for?
Please enlighten me as to one time any Government anywhere has kept every policy unchanged throughout a term.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6170|'straya
No Ty, a government should only be able to make decisions prior to an election, then implement them afterwards.

Actually scrap that, lets just have every Australian vote on every single piece of legislation.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX

Ty wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shouldn't they have changed their stance before the election - so people knew what they were voting for?
Please enlighten me as to one time any Government anywhere has kept every policy unchanged throughout a term.
Australian govts, esp the ALP, are especially shit from that point of view.

I'm waiting to hear a convicing reason the govt should spend time on this.

Meanwhile, we've decided to push for seeling uranium to India but not Pakistan - that'll encourage them as partners in the 'war on terror'...

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-12-07 14:39:37)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6796|Noizyland

Dilbert_X wrote:

Ty wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shouldn't they have changed their stance before the election - so people knew what they were voting for?
Please enlighten me as to one time any Government anywhere has kept every policy unchanged throughout a term.
Australian govts, esp the ALP, are especially shit from that point of view.

I'm waiting to hear a convicing reason the govt should spend time on this.
Because it matters to people. Why should the Government spend time amending classifications for video games?
[Blinking eyes thing]
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TimmmmaaaaH
Damn, I... had something for this
+725|6461|Brisbane, Australia

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Actually scrap that, lets just have every Australian vote on every single piece of legislation.
I would be fully behind this but people are too dumb/apathetic/"busy" for that.


Dilbert_X wrote:

The Greens 'unified voice' is a ragbag of gay fruitcakes and marxists, they are anything but 'green' and I support the green movement.
I am convinced you are trolling and am just removing myself from this thread. Claiming the Greens are about being green is on the same level as the marriage pedantry.

Last edited by TimmmmaaaaH (2011-12-07 23:49:07)

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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX

TimmmmaaaaH wrote:

I would be fully behind this but people are too dumb/apathetic/"busy" for that.
You do know Australia has compulsory voting?


Dilbert_X wrote:

The Greens 'unified voice' is a ragbag of gay fruitcakes and marxists, they are anything but 'green' and I support the green movement.
I am convinced you are trolling and am just removing myself from this thread. Claiming the Greens are about being green is on the same level as the marriage pedantry.
Have you read up on their actual policies?

Just picking A-D from their website:

The Australian Greens 2010 Federal Election election policy initiatives.

100 percent renewable energy
Australia can be a renewable energy powerhouse, harnessing our tremendous resources of sun, wind, wave, earth and human ingenuity to replace our reliance on coal with 100% renewable energy within decades.

Asylum Seekers
The Greens are committed to a long-term, practical and humane approach to asylum seekers and refugees, and to upholding Australia's commitments to international law and human rights.

Access to flexible work arrangements
The Greens believe that all workers should be supported to better balance their work, family and community lives, and propose to extend the existing right to request flexible working arrangements to all Australians.

Aged Care
There is a serious crisis in aged care services in Australia. We have a growing demand for services that isn't being met. The existing system is dysfunctional, and ill-prepared to meet the needs of the future.

ATM Fees
The Greens believe that access to basic banking services, including the use of ATMs, is essential to function in today's society and will introduce legislation to prevent banks from profiteering through ATM fees.

Australia as a good neighbour
The Australian Greens believe that Australia has an important role to play as one of the wealthiest and most stable nations in the Pacific region. The developing nations of the Pacific region are Australia's nearest neighbours and Australia has a great responsibility to provide greater funding and support to create better health, educational and humanitarian opportunities and outcomes in these countries.

Banking Serves Community
A basic bank account is essential to function properly in present day Australian society. This means that the nature of banking services has a very broad impact. Consequently, the welfare of consumers should be protected by law.

Childcare
Early Childhood Education and Care is something that we as parents trust to give our kids the best quality of care and should not be treated as a profit-driven industry open to manipulation by corporations and the stock market; rather it should be seen and supported as the essential service it is.

Climate and health
The impacts of climate change pose significant risks to human health globally. The Greens will establish a Climate Change and Human Health Taskforce to undertake research into the health risks posed to Australia by climate change to 2050 and develop a strategic plan to prevent and manage those risks.

Coal seam gas
Coal seam gas (CSG) extraction should not proceed at the expense of food production, water security, our endangered species or the climate. The Greens call for a moratorium on all coal seam gas extraction in Queensland and promise to introduce environmental laws to protect productive farmland and precious water supplies from harm.

Commissioner for Children
As a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, Australia has a duty to uphold human rights, yet far too many children and young people are falling through the cracks of our society. These include children bullied in schools, the babies, infants and kids who are victims of neglect, the children and teenagers who are homeless on Australian streets every night, and young people who are in juvenile or immigration detention.

Commonwealth Super Pensions
The superannuation system is designed to take pressure off our social security system and provide employees with an adequate income for a reasonable standard of living once retired. For Commonwealth employees and defence force personnel in superannuation pension schemes, appropriate indexation of their pensions is an important factor is meeting these goals.

Commonwealth Teaching Scholarships
The Australian Greens are proposing the introduction of a national Commonwealth Teaching Scholarship Program to attract the best and brightest Australians into teaching, to raise the profile of the teaching profession and to assist in addressing teacher shortages.

Convert to Rent
The Greens Convert to Rent Initiative will increase the amount of affordable rental housing, increase the availability of private rental accommodation and revitalise local neighbourhoods and economies.

Coral Sea Marine Reserve
Australia's Coral Sea is one of the world's last flourishing tropical marine regions. At around 1 million square kilometres, the Coral Sea offers a diverse range of spectacular coral reefs and an abundance of marine wildlife, including many endangered species. Yet only around 1% of this vital area is adequately protected.

Dementia Care
The Greens support the vision for a world class dementia care system and will prioritise early intervention and diagnosis, support for carers and those living with dementia, and fund additional research into the causes of dementia.

Denticare
It is firmly established that poor dental health leads to poor general health, yet many Australians are not able to access basic dental care. The Greens propose that non-cosmetic dental services are incorporated into Medicare under a universal dental health scheme, Denticare.
A good half of that is wholly unrelated to anything 'Green'

LGBTI peak body
The Australian Greens call for the establishment of a federally funded, national peak-body to advocate for the rights and interests of LGBTI Australians.

Paid Parental Leave
Support for parents in their efforts to care for their newborn children is an essential component of any Government policy that aims to promote the health and well-being of infants, and invest in the long-term health and educational outcomes of children.

Performing arts vibrant future
The Greens believe that a vibrant future for Australia's performing arts will involve both the traditional arts, which enrich us and have provided so much to our culture for centuries, and a newer, more open approach to cultural policy, which brings arts into every aspect of our lives.
How is any of that 'Green' or Green related?

Its not, its a total ragbag knocked together and given a 'green' tag so people will vote for it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-12-08 01:07:56)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6796|Noizyland

An "everyone votes on everything" system would render elected representatives moot and destroy any validity of Government. I honestly can't point out all the problems with such a proposal which makes me glad LBJ was using hyperbole. Not to mention the logistical nightmare that would come from it or the cost. You know how much holding a referendum costs? A metric fucktonne to say the least.

Ahem.

Dilbert surely you're not suggesting that a party be solely dedicated to one cause and only one cause based of their name. You may as well complain that the Liberal Party isn't very liberal. To the Greens' credit, environmental policy is at the forefront of their campaigning and it is their expertise - but are you going to blame them for forming opinions and policies about other key issues? Parties are always founded on one or two key issues, the Greens have a focus on environmental policy, the ALP have a focus on labour policy. That doesn't mean they abandon all other areas. The fact is that if a party restricted themselves to one key area they would be completely ineffective and invalid as a political entity.

The Greens have a name, their name suggests that their key policy area is the environment. It doesn't mean that it's their only policy area. That's literally all there is to it.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5200|Sydney
It's like arguing the Liberals should really be, more, well, liberal
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
Fundamental questions should be voted on, fundamental questions on which the party which forms government has completely reversed its policy should be voted on, through an election or otherwise.

The 'Greens' have too many policies which bear no relation to being green for me to be comfortable with, it barely seems to be their focus at all, I'd support them if they didn't.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6796|Noizyland

It's pretty clear to me that you don't understand party politics very well. The Greens not having enough environmental policies for your liking is irrelevant, you don't just vote for a party on what their current policies are, you vote for a party which has principles that you support. All parties have wide-scoping policies. They often give closer attention to key issues of concern for the community at large regardless of what their own area of expertise is. The Greens are a liberal left party with a particular focus on environmental matters, their policies reflect this. Through this it can be easily determined what stance the Greens will take on various issues. That's all there is to it.

Fundamental questions should be voted on, fundamental questions on which the party which forms government has completely reversed its policy should be voted on, through an election or otherwise.
They are, they're voted on internally. If you really have a concern about it then your best course of action is to join a political party and you're free to do so. Parties hold annual general meetings to decide on key policies, this can include changes or shifts of attention. The whole system of elected representatives is essentially the public giving their voice to a party to act on their behalf - but obviously a party can't always act in ways which will please all their constituents. However asking that more policy decisions be determined by the constituents themselves not only undermines the whole point of elected representation but also creates a logistical nightmare with costs that would far far outweigh any likely benefit. Not to mention the further questions it raises - for example who gets to decide on what policies are worthy of being brought to referendum? Hey, we could have a referendum on that!

This is what so got to me when Abbott and a lot of the general public were calling for a whole new Federal Election over one policy, (carbon tax.) It's a catch 22 - they seek what would essentially be a more democratic approach but with it they would undermine the whole concept of the democratic electoral system. You know when I was mocking the Convoy of No Confidence for being a minority group that wanted to remove the ability of minority groups to influence policy decisions? It's this but on a national scale.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
A party which calls itself 'The Greens' - I would expect green policies to be their #1 priority, not gay 'rights'.

They are, they're voted on internally. If you really have a concern about it then your best course of action is to join a political party and you're free to do so.
So why do we bother with manifestos, pre-election commitments, elections and so on?
It seems pointless if whoever we elect simply does in parliament whatever they happen to feel like on the day.

Why not just have people placed in parliament by lottery and tell them to go nuts?
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Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6696|Canberra, AUS
Dilbert, please stop posting in this thread.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6759|Oxferd Ohire
i believe you added 3 unnecessary words at the end of your post.
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
I aplogise for not aligning with your groupthink.
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Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5200|Sydney

Spark wrote:

Dilbert, please stop posting in this thread.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6174|what

I hate having conversations with a Lib supporter who argues that Labor only got in with the help of the Greens and don't really have a majority in parliament.

Oh really, so the Coalition doesn't bother you?

>.<
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

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