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2011-01-18 10:26:34
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6421|North Carolina

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

If you can't see how the government genrerates money I suggest you go back to high school.
Not sure what the fixation is on "Generating Money" but the real debate you two are trying to have is the old "Creation of Wealth" vs "Debt".

The Government regulates wealth and debt that is created by people.  In doing so it "balances" the debt load on the private sector through monetary polices (tax rate, interest rate, tax system).

The Dollar gets its value by the debt load it represents (debt creates the dollar so the dollar = wealth).  Wealth is created many ways and there is NOT a fixed amount of wealth in the world like many people believe.

This Debt load right now for a US dollar is spread among 300+ million people, in the '70s it was spread among ~100 million people.  Our government loves immigration because of this, it keeps the paramid scheme going awhile longer.

Physical Wealth is like owning your house, a business with a factory with equipment all paid for, anything material without a lean against it, something that can acquire another's debt (dollar).  In reality the government owns most physical wealth in America.  This is why we have property tax, the government owns your house(land) in reality and through this system ultimately owns most wealth its citizens create or aquire.  This is what balances the debt load on the dollar.

If I really wanted to argue with Lowing I would just say that America could generate money by building a military and then using it to overthrow another country and then charge property tax to the people that live there.
Well, there's more than that though.  Expanding and improving certain infrastructures via public spending can lead to increases in private revenue.  When it comes to actually generating money, military expenditures are some of the least efficient.  Nearly anything involving military action leads to a net loss in revenue -- unless you count indirect gains involving strategic influence in global markets.

For example, the only profitable angle to the Iraq War for the economy overall is causing oil prices to spike -- which can benefit American oil companies and multinational oil companies that are based in America.

By contrast, public investment in education can lead to some of the greatest gains for the economy.  Granted, this is still dependent on the quality of management.
2011-01-18 10:57:33
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6199|Ireland

Turquoise wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

If you can't see how the government genrerates money I suggest you go back to high school.
Not sure what the fixation is on "Generating Money" but the real debate you two are trying to have is the old "Creation of Wealth" vs "Debt".

The Government regulates wealth and debt that is created by people.  In doing so it "balances" the debt load on the private sector through monetary polices (tax rate, interest rate, tax system).

The Dollar gets its value by the debt load it represents (debt creates the dollar so the dollar = wealth).  Wealth is created many ways and there is NOT a fixed amount of wealth in the world like many people believe.

This Debt load right now for a US dollar is spread among 300+ million people, in the '70s it was spread among ~100 million people.  Our government loves immigration because of this, it keeps the paramid scheme going awhile longer.

Physical Wealth is like owning your house, a business with a factory with equipment all paid for, anything material without a lean against it, something that can acquire another's debt (dollar).  In reality the government owns most physical wealth in America.  This is why we have property tax, the government owns your house(land) in reality and through this system ultimately owns most wealth its citizens create or aquire.  This is what balances the debt load on the dollar.

If I really wanted to argue with Lowing I would just say that America could generate money by building a military and then using it to overthrow another country and then charge property tax to the people that live there.
Well, there's more than that though.  Expanding and improving certain infrastructures via public spending can lead to increases in private revenue.  When it comes to actually generating money, military expenditures are some of the least efficient.  Nearly anything involving military action leads to a net loss in revenue -- unless you count indirect gains involving strategic influence in global markets.

For example, the only profitable angle to the Iraq War for the economy overall is causing oil prices to spike -- which can benefit American oil companies and multinational oil companies that are based in America.

By contrast, public investment in education can lead to some of the greatest gains for the economy.  Granted, this is still dependent on the quality of management.
Yeah, my post isn't very well written or complete as I did it in hast right before I had a meeting. but the jist was that the dollar represents debt and all that backs it is citizens promising to repay that debit with work, physical wealth,.......  All the US government does is accept this promise of repayment when issuing(printing) dollars in the form of Loans to Banks and such.

It is obvious that the 500,000 working people in America can not back up 12+ Trillion dollars of debt.  Everything is funny money now and really not backed by anything, the US dollar will fail soon and there is not turning back.  It is laughable how the US media and politicians never discuss this truth while everyone positions themselves for the collapse of the dollar that we will see in our lifetime.  The bailout of the banks by the US government was just to buy time.  They made a payment on a credit card with a credit card.  Doesn't take long to figure out how long that will last before banks will fail again.
2011-01-18 11:20:10
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6421|North Carolina

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Yeah, my post isn't very well written or complete as I did it in hast right before I had a meeting. but the jist was that the dollar represents debt and all that backs it is citizens promising to repay that debit with work, physical wealth,.......  All the US government does is accept this promise of repayment when issuing(printing) dollars in the form of Loans to Banks and such.

It is obvious that the 500,000 working people in America can not back up 12+ Trillion dollars of debt.  Everything is funny money now and really not backed by anything, the US dollar will fail soon and there is not turning back.  It is laughable how the US media and politicians never discuss this truth while everyone positions themselves for the collapse of the dollar that we will see in our lifetime.  The bailout of the banks by the US government was just to buy time.  They made a payment on a credit card with a credit card.  Doesn't take long to figure out how long that will last before banks will fail again.
It's not fully backed by just our labor though (and I'm assuming the 500,000 figure is a typo).  As economies become more service-based, they depend more and more on foreign investment.  If you can continually adapt your economy to comparative advantage by improving the education and skill of your workforce, then foreign investment naturally flows into your economy as you specialize more.

Also, increasing immigration is necessary as your population ages out -- not just from a monetary viewpoint, but also from a healthcare one.

Australia is a good example of an economy that maintains steady growth due to this continual adaptation, and their economy is heavily dependent on foreign investment.  America is similar, but we haven't adapted as well to comparative advantage.

The benefits to the Australian approach are easily seen in how well they've weathered the recession in comparison to us.

Granted, there are disadvantages to being heavily dependent on foreign investment.  In particular, China has become increasingly influential in the Australian economy and in its culture.

Of course, the same could be said for us due to China's heavy involvement in buying our financial assets and debt.
2011-01-18 13:58:01
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Is Finlands govt. constantly in danger of loosing its power like our govt. is in the US? I really am asking because I don't know.

I feel because our govt. is constantly in danger of regime change that it scrambles to appease for votes and does not necessarily do for the people what really is in the best interest of the people. I i guess what I am saying is, sometimes the answer should be NO. Therefore it is constantly throwing good money to bad programs or it throws good money away in an effort to APPEAR as if it is really doing something, again for the almighty vote, when in fact it is hindering real progress.
If you're suggesting that special interests have destroyed our system, I would agree.  Yes, Finland is very culturally homogeneous compared to us, and the difference between their political left and right is much less significant than the difference between ours.

This is part of why I feel that humans are best governed in small groups with mostly homogeneous cultures.

Nevertheless, while I acknowledge the challenges of living in a very large country with a very diverse population, I think it is rather sad that we implement halfassed programs due to our bickering.

Surely, we can do better than this.
I do not think our problems stem from being diverse. There is plenty of lazy good for nothing leeches to cover all races and cultures. It comes from the liberal mindset that the govt. is supposed to take care of our every want and need. It shows even in this thread that some people do not understand or appreciate that all they think they are entitled to or "deserve", does not come from govt., nor is it "free". It comes from someone else's efforts, that the govt. has tapped into and redistributed THEIR reward for those efforts..

These people still think the govt. generates its own wealth. If that is true, why the fuck do I need to pay taxes then? The govt., in their eyes earns it's own money, they it sure as fuck does not need mine.
2011-01-18 14:25:46
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

If you can't see how the government genrerates money I suggest you go back to high school.
Not sure what the fixation is on "Generating Money" but the real debate you two are trying to have is the old "Creation of Wealth" vs "Debt".

The Government regulates wealth and debt that is created by people.  In doing so it "balances" the debt load on the private sector through monetary polices (tax rate, interest rate, tax system).

The Dollar gets its value by the debt load it represents (debt creates the dollar so the dollar = wealth).  Wealth is created many ways and there is NOT a fixed amount of wealth in the world like many people believe.

This Debt load right now for a US dollar is spread among 300+ million people, in the '70s it was spread among ~100 million people.  Our government loves immigration because of this, it keeps the paramid scheme going awhile longer.

Physical Wealth is like owning your house, a business with a factory with equipment all paid for, anything material without a lean against it, something that can acquire another's debt (dollar).  In reality the government owns most physical wealth in America.  This is why we have property tax, the government owns your house(land) in reality and through this system ultimately owns most wealth its citizens create or aquire.  This is what balances the debt load on the dollar.

If I really wanted to argue with Lowing I would just say that America could generate money by building a military and then using it to overthrow another country and then charge property tax to the people that live there.
if you wanted to argue with me, you need to do better than that, for all the govt. would be doing is forcing money from its rightful owners through military might, instead of how they do it in the US, which is legislate it away from its rightful owners. Still not creating wealth, just stealing it by another means.

In order for the govt. to generate its own wealth the govt. needs to take out a loan in order to build its widget factory and start creating widgets and then sell them for profit. When it starts to EARN a profit it then pays off its loan and builds more factories and better widgets for greater profit. Then it can invest ITS OWN money wherever it likes for even more profit. This is how you generate wealth. As it is, our govt. does nothing of the sort. Therefore it does not creat its own wealth, it redistributes it form those that have.
2011-01-18 16:32:16
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6199|Ireland
Doesn't a thief generate wealth by stealing?  Why can't the government.
2011-01-18 16:35:18
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6514

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Doesn't a thief generate wealth by stealing?  Why can't the government.
no, he redistributes it, not generate.
2011-01-18 16:37:38
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Doesn't a thief generate wealth by stealing?  Why can't the government.
uhhhh no, he doesn't. He didn't generate  shit....Someone else did, and he stole it, that is why they call him a thief,.................. or the govt.

Last edited by lowing (2011-01-18 16:39:45)

2011-01-18 16:39:23
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5195|Sydney

lowing wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

If you can't see how the government genrerates money I suggest you go back to high school.
Not sure what the fixation is on "Generating Money" but the real debate you two are trying to have is the old "Creation of Wealth" vs "Debt".

The Government regulates wealth and debt that is created by people.  In doing so it "balances" the debt load on the private sector through monetary polices (tax rate, interest rate, tax system).

The Dollar gets its value by the debt load it represents (debt creates the dollar so the dollar = wealth).  Wealth is created many ways and there is NOT a fixed amount of wealth in the world like many people believe.

This Debt load right now for a US dollar is spread among 300+ million people, in the '70s it was spread among ~100 million people.  Our government loves immigration because of this, it keeps the paramid scheme going awhile longer.

Physical Wealth is like owning your house, a business with a factory with equipment all paid for, anything material without a lean against it, something that can acquire another's debt (dollar).  In reality the government owns most physical wealth in America.  This is why we have property tax, the government owns your house(land) in reality and through this system ultimately owns most wealth its citizens create or aquire.  This is what balances the debt load on the dollar.

If I really wanted to argue with Lowing I would just say that America could generate money by building a military and then using it to overthrow another country and then charge property tax to the people that live there.
if you wanted to argue with me, you need to do better than that, for all the govt. would be doing is forcing money from its rightful owners through military might, instead of how they do it in the US, which is legislate it away from its rightful owners. Still not creating wealth, just stealing it by another means.

In order for the govt. to generate its own wealth the govt. needs to take out a loan in order to build its widget factory and start creating widgets and then sell them for profit. When it starts to EARN a profit it then pays off its loan and builds more factories and better widgets for greater profit. Then it can invest ITS OWN money wherever it likes for even more profit. This is how you generate wealth. As it is, our govt. does nothing of the sort. Therefore it does not creat its own wealth, it redistributes it form those that have.
Far out dude. The taxation system is crucial to how any government operates. If the government has good economic policy, business prospers and more taxes are generated as a result. That's one way the government makes its money.

Maybe you should save up and buy your own island somewhere and be done with it.
2011-01-18 16:42:21
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:


Not sure what the fixation is on "Generating Money" but the real debate you two are trying to have is the old "Creation of Wealth" vs "Debt".

The Government regulates wealth and debt that is created by people.  In doing so it "balances" the debt load on the private sector through monetary polices (tax rate, interest rate, tax system).

The Dollar gets its value by the debt load it represents (debt creates the dollar so the dollar = wealth).  Wealth is created many ways and there is NOT a fixed amount of wealth in the world like many people believe.

This Debt load right now for a US dollar is spread among 300+ million people, in the '70s it was spread among ~100 million people.  Our government loves immigration because of this, it keeps the paramid scheme going awhile longer.

Physical Wealth is like owning your house, a business with a factory with equipment all paid for, anything material without a lean against it, something that can acquire another's debt (dollar).  In reality the government owns most physical wealth in America.  This is why we have property tax, the government owns your house(land) in reality and through this system ultimately owns most wealth its citizens create or aquire.  This is what balances the debt load on the dollar.

If I really wanted to argue with Lowing I would just say that America could generate money by building a military and then using it to overthrow another country and then charge property tax to the people that live there.
if you wanted to argue with me, you need to do better than that, for all the govt. would be doing is forcing money from its rightful owners through military might, instead of how they do it in the US, which is legislate it away from its rightful owners. Still not creating wealth, just stealing it by another means.

In order for the govt. to generate its own wealth the govt. needs to take out a loan in order to build its widget factory and start creating widgets and then sell them for profit. When it starts to EARN a profit it then pays off its loan and builds more factories and better widgets for greater profit. Then it can invest ITS OWN money wherever it likes for even more profit. This is how you generate wealth. As it is, our govt. does nothing of the sort. Therefore it does not creat its own wealth, it redistributes it form those that have.
Far out dude. The taxation system is crucial to how any government operates. If the government has good economic policy, business prospers and more taxes are generated as a result. That's one way the government makes its money.

Maybe you should save up and buy your own island somewhere and be done with it.
Already covered that. Taxes are necessary for the operational needs of the govt. and should be collected for that purpose. wealth redistribution is not an operational need of the govt.

As for good economic policy, I agree, when will it start?
2011-01-18 16:43:37
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5195|Sydney
Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
2011-01-18 16:44:27
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5253|Cleveland, Ohio

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
except you pay taxes so.....you are stealing from yourself
2011-01-18 16:44:53
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
Disagree. national defense is a function of govt. already covered that as well.
2011-01-18 16:45:35
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6169|what

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
Disagree. national defense is a function of govt. already covered that as well.
Does that include the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2011-01-18 16:46:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

AussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
Disagree. national defense is a function of govt. already covered that as well.
Does that include the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are we discussing personal opinion now or are gunna stick to the facts of the discussion?
2011-01-18 16:47:14
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5195|Sydney

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
Disagree. national defense is a function of govt. already covered that as well.
Anything the government does is a function, by definition of "doing" LOL.
2011-01-18 16:47:48
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5195|Sydney

11 Bravo wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
except you pay taxes so.....you are stealing from yourself
Forum troll.
2011-01-18 16:49:34
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
Disagree. national defense is a function of govt. already covered that as well.
Anything the government does is a function, by definition of "doing" LOL.
well that I guess I can't disagree with
2011-01-18 16:49:50
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5253|Cleveland, Ohio

Jaekus wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
except you pay taxes so.....you are stealing from yourself
Forum troll.
lol you are one to talk.  what i posted was fact.  what you got?  forum fag
2011-01-18 16:50:36
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6169|what

lowing wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:


Disagree. national defense is a function of govt. already covered that as well.
Does that include the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are we discussing personal opinion now or are gunna stick to the facts of the discussion?
I think you should check out the amount of money the US govt is spending per soldier, and compare it to the amount of money spent on a childs education.

Your wife is in education, yeah? maybe you already know the answer.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2011-01-18 16:52:48
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5195|Sydney

11 Bravo wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


except you pay taxes so.....you are stealing from yourself
Forum troll.
lol you are one to talk.  what i posted was fact.  what you got?  forum fag
Fact? LMAO

I hardly think I'm "stealing from myself" dude. Taxes pay for the roads I drive on, the education I received and some of the healthcare I had to receive in the past. It's a necessary investment into the building of a nation.
2011-01-18 16:54:08
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6668|USA

AussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Does that include the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are we discussing personal opinion now or are gunna stick to the facts of the discussion?
I think you should check out the amount of money the US govt is spending per soldier, and compare it to the amount of money spent on a childs education.

Your wife is in education, yeah? maybe you already know the answer.
yes she is a teacher,
We have  high national defense bill. what is your point regarding what we have been discussing? IE the govt. NOT generating wealth, or the function of govt. ?

Last edited by lowing (2011-01-18 16:58:32)

2011-01-18 16:54:54
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5253|Cleveland, Ohio

Jaekus wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Jaekus wrote:


Forum troll.
lol you are one to talk.  what i posted was fact.  what you got?  forum fag
Fact? LMAO

I hardly think I'm "stealing from myself" dude. Taxes pay for the roads I drive on, the education I received and some of the healthcare I had to receive in the past. It's a necessary investment into the building of a nation.

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
my taxes go towards roads and education also.

u stupid?
2011-01-18 16:55:34
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5195|Sydney

11 Bravo wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


lol you are one to talk.  what i posted was fact.  what you got?  forum fag
Fact? LMAO

I hardly think I'm "stealing from myself" dude. Taxes pay for the roads I drive on, the education I received and some of the healthcare I had to receive in the past. It's a necessary investment into the building of a nation.

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
my taxes go towards roads and education also.

u stupid?
No, you are. Or putting on a very good act of pretending to be stupid
2011-01-18 16:56:42
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5253|Cleveland, Ohio

Jaekus wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Jaekus wrote:


Fact? LMAO

I hardly think I'm "stealing from myself" dude. Taxes pay for the roads I drive on, the education I received and some of the healthcare I had to receive in the past. It's a necessary investment into the building of a nation.

Jaekus wrote:

Well, if you're a part of the military you're just receiving the money the government "stole" from us tax payers.
my taxes go towards roads and education also.

u stupid?
No, you are. Or putting on a very good act of pretending to be stupid
no u

 

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