beerface702
Member
+65|6715|las vegas
not my work(obvious)

But worth a read...
----------------------------------

I am a born and bred US citizen, a military veteran, and this is why I believe Americans don't riot, or even vehemently protest.

In our history, it has been those with the least (or nothing) to lose that have rioted and protested. African-Americans in the 1960's wanted a better life and had little to lose and everything to gain during the civil rights protests. The decision to protest was between maintaining the second-class status quo and offering your children a better life. The decision was sometimes difficult, but there was much gain to be had for the risk.

The youth in the 1960's had a vested interest in ending the Vietnam war, since they were facing imminent drafts into the military. They were generally college students, away from home for the first time, asserting their independence and living very simply in a college dorm room. They didn't have a lot to lose, but they could potentially lose their life if they were drafted and fighting in Vietnam. The risk was minimal with the gain of not risking life or limb. The decision to protest was simple.

Fast forward to 2009. We have been raised in a consumerist capitalist economy. With few exceptions we are very materialistic. Who you are is defined by the car you drive, the house and neighborhood you live in, what university you attended, who your friends are, what status is assigned to your job, and how many material possessions you have.

This may come as a surprise to outsiders, but most Americans are one paycheck away from being destitute. Savings are minimal, living expenses are many.

When you protest or riot, you put your present and future at risk. If you embarrass your employer by being shown on camera or being thrown in jail, there's a high likelihood that you'll lose your job. The potential gain of the protest needs to offset this risk. It's hard to be altruistic if you stand to lose everything for the cause.

Especially if you have that little nuclear family to feed.

For those outside the US, I'll describe the steps that would likely occur if you were to lose your job as a result of pretesting some perceived injustice:

You attend a riot.
You are arrested.
You're in jail for 3 days.
Your boss finds out because you missed work and didn't call to explain why.
You lose your job.
Your savings, if you have any, are gone in the first month on the following debts:

Mortgage: $2000 - $3000 a month on your $250,000 to $750,000 home (these are not mansions, simply nice homes in good neighborhoods in good economical areas)

Automobile: $300 - $500. Most household have at least 2 cars.

Groceries: Most Americans dine out 3+ times a week, and have lost the art of cooking healthy, nutritious meals.

Insurance: We are plagued by home, health, dental, auto, life, legal and in some cases pet insurance. This can total over $1000 a month unless your employer has a very generous health plan. The day you miss a payment you lose all coverage and the money you've paid in is gone. And when and if you recover enough to buy back in, you have huge penalties for being uninsured for any period of time over 60 days.

Children's education: This can be from $10,000 minimum to $50,000 a year per child for a good education.

There's plenty more in incidentals, such as heat, water, telephone, broadband internet, etc.

Eventually, you will lose your home. If you're a renter it will be within 30 days. If you have a mortgage, it could take up to 9 months.

Now you have no job, no home, possibly no car and your savings are gone. Your spouse, who was also raised in that consumer capitalist lifestyle, will leave to cut his/her losses and look for better opportunities.

In most cases, the non-working spouse will win primary custody of the children in a divorce. You are now saddled with anywhere from $300 - $600 a month per child in child support payments.

If you cannot make these payments, you may end up as a "deadbeat parent". This may result in your being sent to join our vast prison population.

When you are released from jail, you now have a criminal record. This makes it substantially more difficult to find a well-paying job with which to pay your debts.

You will likely never recover from these setbacks. Some do, most don't.

These are the things that go through an American's mind before they decide to riot.

We think we're free, but there's a lot we can't do without huge risk to our lifestyles.

Is that really free?

I believe that we live in an artfully designed covertly oppressive society. No one will tell you not to protest or riot, but it will cost you.

Think about it long and hard.

Is it worth it? What's in it for me? I'm not happy about the war in Iraq, but does it affect me? Does my life improve if I protest and we end the war? Nah, probably not. I'll just go to work today, but I will think of the soldiers in Iraq.

That's good enough.

Americans will not riot until we have nothing left to lose, and for most people that's a lot of material wealth (that which we value, unfortunately).

But it can happen in a very short timeframe. We are in a recession, headed into depression. Foreclosures are making more Americans homeless each day.

As I look at the empty homes in my neighborhood, I am reminded that every homeless American is another potential rioter. A person who has had a taste of everything, and will fight to reclaim it. At some point, survival instinct kicks in and desperation overrules reason.

As I read the conspiracy forums, I see postings that separately sound like fantasy. However, when taken as a whole, they start weaving an intricate web of insight, recent events, cause and effect, and plans that, from a government's perspective (but not an individual citizen's perspective), make sense. Planning that the government must certainly be doing to prepare for what might happen if we reach certain milestones, such as 30% employment and rising, retirement savings and futures lost, rampant homelessness, beloved children and parents ill and dying without healthcare.

That's just the fear they must have of desperate Americans.

Add to that foreign interests and the now universal hatred of America and what we stand for, the havoc our Wall Street's greed has created in the world economy. It's nearly impossible to support what the government must certainly be planning, because it's not going to be pleasant. If even a fraction of the conspiracy theories are correct, there's a police state coming, because it will need to be to maintain order.

But it's hard to imagine that they're not actually planning this, creating their red, blue and yellow lists, detention camps, and using the Patriot Act to look for dissenters.

If you were in power, wouldn't you?

The Soviet Union fell, Rome fell, the British empire fell.

We too could fall.

We're no one special.

Just another momentary blink in the history of this planet.

We'll be gone and forgotten by the next blink.

-------------=
From an ---Anonymous Coward---

Last edited by beerface702 (2009-02-05 00:33:21)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

Riots... then what?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
beerface702
Member
+65|6715|las vegas
hunger? trying to pick up the pieces.. I dunno

this is mostly hypothetical stuff, but there is alot of truth in this article regarding our society in general.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5608

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6739

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
Worked for Cronulla.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6697|Canberra, AUS

Cybargs wrote:

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
Worked for Cronulla.
lol
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5608

Cybargs wrote:

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
Worked for Cronulla.
99% of the time. There's always exceptions. But usually when riots occur in the U.S. people take it way too far. Like the rioting in LA after the court verdict did nothing but made African Americans more polarized in the U.S.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6128|eXtreme to the maX
I believe that we live in an artfully designed covertly oppressive society. No one will tell you not to protest or riot, but it will cost you.
I believe you're right.
Bet you wished you lived in socialist country eh? Most of the problems you speak about don't exist.
There are other problems but I'll take those any day.

PS Why do you think the police work so hard to turn peaceful protests into riots?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-02-04 23:50:57)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6737|US

Dilbert_X wrote:

I believe that we live in an artfully designed covertly oppressive society. No one will tell you not to protest or riot, but it will cost you.
I believe you're right.
Bet you wished you lived in socialist country eh? Most of the problems you speak about don't exist.
There are other problems but I'll take those any day.
Oh, like that wonderfully integrated and peaceful nation of France? /sarcasm


The end of the letter sounds a bit too much of a conspiracy-theory to me.  The steps up to it are fairly logical; which is worrisome.

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2009-02-04 23:48:29)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6623|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:

I believe that we live in an artfully designed covertly oppressive society. No one will tell you not to protest or riot, but it will cost you.
I believe you're right.
Bet you wished you lived in socialist country eh? Most of the problems you speak about don't exist.
There are other problems but I'll take those any day.

PS Why do you think the police work so hard to turn peaceful protests into riots?
For the most part we have absultely no problem protesting. They arent really newsworthy though.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6128|eXtreme to the maX
Oh, like that wonderfully integrated and peaceful nation of France?
Lets see.
Protest is a fundamental political right.
You can't be fired for expressing a political opinion - that freedom of speech thing.
Healthcare is free, so you can't lose it.
Most people have savings and low outgoings.
If you get fired you get dole, and can't generally be thrown out of your home because you lost your job.
The govt doesn't typically get involved in pointless and expensive wars far from home.

Doesn't seem so bad.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6794|PNW

beerface702 wrote:

OP [...]
https://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Bungalow/6046/images/eeyore1.jpg

beerface702 wrote:

Savings are minimal, living expenses are many.
...budgeting skills are nonexistent, motivation is limp-wristed, English skills are aberrant...

The US has great potential for recovery, but much of it is as (or more) dependent on the citizens themselves as on (than) the government. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy that 2x (his and hers) $60,000 SUV, that $5000 TV, that $3000 computer, $10,000 of video games and movies, $15,000 of furniture and a mortgage to make a millionaire blanch.

Bedtime. Early to work tomorrow. Contracting's a bitch, but it bears fruit.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2009-02-05 00:05:20)

beerface702
Member
+65|6715|las vegas
don't expect deep, intellectual conversations out of my ass btw.

Just a Journalist reporting the DOOM.*cough*news
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6428|North Carolina
Interesting points...

There are certain perks to living in more socialistic countries like Norway and France.

Personally, I find myself in the middle.  I don't think we should be as socialist as the French or Norwegians, but I think we're currently moving in a very corporatist direction with these bailouts.

Think of it like this...  In the Soviet Union, the state controlled everything and forced people to pay into the system.  In America, corporations own everything, and through the government's bailouts, force you to pay for their mistakes.

The similarities are rather disturbing.

I personally prefer a system where your freedom is maximized and the influence of corporations is secondary to that of the common man.

Granted, this system doesn't exist in reality.
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|6668

Kmarion wrote:

Riots... then what?
start robbing stores and malls! then everyone be rich or if you see millions and millions of people rioting doubt cops are gonna do anything about that maybe few hundred and thousand but not millions!!!

Last edited by blademaster (2009-02-05 14:51:38)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6428|North Carolina

blademaster wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Riots... then what?
start robbing stores and malls! then everyone be rich or if you see millions and millions of people rioting doubt cops are gonna do anything about that maybe few hundred and thousand but not millions!!!
Ah...  the Oakland method. 
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6672

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
I'm pretty sure the people that go around smashing shops aren't from that area. And if they are they they're fucking idiots.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6739

ghettoperson wrote:

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
I'm pretty sure the people that go around smashing shops aren't from that area. And if they are they they're fucking idiots.
during the rodney king riots the people burned and looted their own neigborhoods...

and i'm not ready to riot yet... BO is gonna take care of me... just waiting for the checks to start arriving...
Love is the answer
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6712|Tampa Bay Florida

Turquoise wrote:

Interesting points...

There are certain perks to living in more socialistic countries like Norway and France.

Personally, I find myself in the middle.  I don't think we should be as socialist as the French or Norwegians, but I think we're currently moving in a very corporatist direction with these bailouts.

Think of it like this...  In the Soviet Union, the state controlled everything and forced people to pay into the system.  In America, corporations own everything, and through the government's bailouts, force you to pay for their mistakes.

The similarities are rather disturbing.

I personally prefer a system where your freedom is maximized and the influence of corporations is secondary to that of the common man.

Granted, this system doesn't exist in reality.
Total capitalism and total communism are one in the same

Corporations = greater threat to the "free" market and the average Joe than a democratically elected Government (imo)

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. doesnt matter what people call it.  This is also why I think Republicans are very hypocritical when they talk about the free market.  Corporations are just another way of saying "We got a lotta money therefore we can nudge the government into making laws saying we don't have to pay back to society, no matter how much we fuck up"
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6654|949

For those outside the US, I'll describe the steps that would likely occur if you were to lose your job as a result of pretesting some perceived injustice:

You attend a riot.
Protest =/= Riot.

Sounds like a whole lot of nothing.  Interestingly enough, reminds me of ATG

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2009-02-05 16:13:36)

13rin
Member
+977|6502

Kmarion wrote:

Riots... then what?
I have another example to use in debate on the second amendment and why I have the right to my AR's.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6428|North Carolina

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

I really don't see the point in rioting 99% of the time. It's counter productive to your goal and you just destroy your own area.
I'm pretty sure the people that go around smashing shops aren't from that area. And if they are they they're fucking idiots.
during the rodney king riots the people burned and looted their own neigborhoods...

and i'm not ready to riot yet... BO is gonna take care of me... just waiting for the checks to start arriving...
Indeed...  most rioting does actually occur in the vicinity of where the rioters live.

For example, the North Africans that rioted in France destroyed not only the property of others but also property in their own neighborhoods.
imortal
Member
+240|6687|Austin, TX

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

For those outside the US, I'll describe the steps that would likely occur if you were to lose your job as a result of pretesting some perceived injustice:

You attend a riot.
Protest =/= Riot.

Sounds like a whole lot of nothing.  Interestingly enough, reminds me of ATG
You are right; protests are not riots.  Now, European and South (and Central) Amercian football (soccer) games... now, those are riots.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6669
I'd rather go assassins creed on the banking industry than destroy local shops and stores.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6428|North Carolina

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

I'd rather go assassins creed on the banking industry than destroy local shops and stores.
...as would I.  It would be much more effective too....

Imagine the message it would send if Madoff was publicly burned alive...   There are a few others in dire need of...  blood justice.

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