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2008-06-13 00:03:07
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
Major Guantanamo setback for Bush
Foreign suspects held in Guantanamo Bay have the right to challenge their detention in US civilian courts, the US Supreme Court has ruled.

In a major legal setback for the Bush administration, the court overturned by five to four a ruling upholding a 2006 law which removed such rights.
It is not clear if the ruling will lead to prompt hearings for the detainees.
Some 270 men are held at the US naval base, on suspicion of terrorism or links to al-Qaeda and the Taleban.
US President George W Bush said he would abide by the court's ruling even if he did not agree with it.
Human rights groups have welcomed the move, Amnesty International saying it was an "essential step forward towards the restoration of the rule of law".

Brushing aside the government's arguments that the detainees were enemy combatants being held at a time of war outside the US, the court said they had "the constitutional privilege of habeas corpus".
This is the right of detainees under the US constitution to be heard by an independent judge.
Justice Anthony Kennedy said: "The laws and constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system they are reconciled within the framework of the law."
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7451139.stm

Well thank God for a reasonably independent judiciary.

Where to now for Gitmo?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2008-06-13 00:29:54
PureFodder
Member
+225|6306
It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
2008-06-13 00:36:42
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6621|132 and Bush

PureFodder wrote:

It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-06-13 00:48:27
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6601|the dank(super) side of Oregon
I bet Scalia shit a brick.
2008-06-13 00:56:13
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire
"Due Process"...the great evil of our times!
2008-06-13 00:57:06
PureFodder
Member
+225|6306

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
Go look up US human rights abuses and compare it to Western Europe. The US is still playing catchup.

Freedoms like abolition of slavery, where the US trailed Europe by 30 years, civil rights again trailed behind Europe, Rights of homosexuals, still not caught up. Worker rights, consistently trailed decades behind Europe. In fact, I can only think of freedom of speech where the US actually lead the world.

The historically accurate scale appears to show the US playing a lot of catch-up rather than leading the way.
2008-06-13 01:24:43
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6540|Πάϊ

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
Oh please lol pull down the flag and hold the singing man geez.

Democracy and freedom were invented and applied better than ever a few thousand years before the discovery of the American Continent. Let alone the creation of "national identity" by the European immigrants there...

Enough with that waving around of freedom as if it's an American product.
ƒ³
2008-06-13 01:43:15
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
In what year did it become okay for black people to sit at the front of the bus over there?
2008-06-13 01:48:18
jamiecracker
Member
+17|6768|Wollongong,Australia
hehehehe i love flag wavers
such a one sided view of life

i cant believe that the whole thing is still going
2008-06-13 03:25:01
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6432|'Murka

I think KM was trying to point out the complete lack of historical perspective employed by many euros here (ie, US history and foreign policy began prior to 2001).

As for human rights: How long was Europe run by the feudal system? How about the crusades? Raping and pillaging of native peoples in the New World?

The benefit of being a fairly young country is that we don't have the size and variety of baggage that you guys do. But go ahead and keep trying to point out your moral superiority.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-06-13 04:41:23
PureFodder
Member
+225|6306

FEOS wrote:

I think KM was trying to point out the complete lack of historical perspective employed by many euros here (ie, US history and foreign policy began prior to 2001).

As for human rights: How long was Europe run by the feudal system? How about the crusades? Raping and pillaging of native peoples in the New World?

The benefit of being a fairly young country is that we don't have the size and variety of baggage that you guys do. But go ahead and keep trying to point out your moral superiority.
Same people, same baggage. The history of the American people tends to head straight back to Europe. The histories only divert during the war of independence, everything previous is as much my history as yours. The civil rights the US started with were fought for and won by Europeans.

In fact, for a young country, the amount of baggage made is impressive. The US is hardly innocent on the raping and murdering of native peoples topic. Many North American Indians around these days?

If we go back before 2001 we have murderous attacks in East Asia killing millions. Attacks on South America, support of brutal opressive mass murdering dictatorships, overthrowing of democracies, sposorship of terrorist groups, terrorism against tiny nations like Cuba.

Be glad people base their opinions of the US on recent history, it gets a lot worse if you go back further.

As far as human rights go, the US has historically lagged behind Europe in pretty well every area except their first class freedom of speach laws, currently the US has far from the best human rights record. That's simply the reality of the situation.
2008-06-13 04:59:15
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

FEOS wrote:

I think KM was trying to point out the complete lack of historical perspective employed by many euros here (ie, US history and foreign policy began prior to 2001).
You are right, US foreign policy began long before 2001. I for one definitely do not negate American interference in Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Chile, Cuba, Venezuela, Afghanistan (during the cold war), Somalia, Ethiopia etc. etc. when I'm considering US history.

FEOS wrote:

As for human rights: How long was Europe run by the feudal system? How about the crusades? Raping and pillaging of native peoples in the New World?
We have had a long, bloody history here in Europe and thankfully the majority of Europe is enjoying peaceful times in our age. No one here has any illusions regarding our violent past.

FEOS wrote:

The benefit of being a fairly young country is that we don't have the size and variety of baggage that you guys do. But go ahead and keep trying to point out your moral superiority.
In your short and recent history you managed to wipe out the Indians and oppress black people right up until the last century; you are still suffering a banging hangover from the racial tension of your recent past. America has more baggage than the baggage department at 'Baggageville International Airport'. Your statement is the one that is ironically assuming a position of moral superiority.
2008-06-13 05:25:35
13rin
Member
+977|6500

Braddock wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
In what year did it become okay for black people to sit at the front of the bus over there?
This is retarted.  The USA is a mere infant compared to you Europeans nations.  In its 200 years, I'd say the USA has progressed 10 times faster than ya'll. 

@ bus comment...  So in what year did it become safe for Jews to live over there again?

OT:  It is ashame these assholes are now being afforded the same rights as US Citizens.  What a slap in the face to our soldiers.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2008-06-13 05:28:59)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2008-06-13 05:30:27
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6432|'Murka

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I think KM was trying to point out the complete lack of historical perspective employed by many euros here (ie, US history and foreign policy began prior to 2001).

As for human rights: How long was Europe run by the feudal system? How about the crusades? Raping and pillaging of native peoples in the New World?

The benefit of being a fairly young country is that we don't have the size and variety of baggage that you guys do. But go ahead and keep trying to point out your moral superiority.
Same people, same baggage. The history of the American people tends to head straight back to Europe. The histories only divert during the war of independence, everything previous is as much my history as yours. The civil rights the US started with were fought for and won by Europeans.
But the first republic in Europe based itself on the new US model.

Regardless, you've made my point for me. The biases that framed much of our civil rights problems (particularly WRT the indigenous people here and the slaves) came straight from mother Europe.

PureFodder wrote:

In fact, for a young country, the amount of baggage made is impressive. The US is hardly innocent on the raping and murdering of native peoples topic. Many North American Indians around these days?
See above.

PureFodder wrote:

If we go back before 2001 we have murderous attacks in East Asia killing millions. Attacks on South America, support of brutal opressive mass murdering dictatorships, overthrowing of democracies, sposorship of terrorist groups, terrorism against tiny nations like Cuba.
But European countries did none of the same?

PureFodder wrote:

Be glad people base their opinions of the US on recent history, it gets a lot worse if you go back further.
Same can be said for Europe.

PureFodder wrote:

As far as human rights go, the US has historically lagged behind Europe in pretty well every area except their first class freedom of speach laws, currently the US has far from the best human rights record. That's simply the reality of the situation.
And our system is on its way to correct that. The human right problem you decry involves (in relative terms) a handful of people. Compared to the 300+ million population of the US. Perspective.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-06-13 05:36:56
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6432|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I think KM was trying to point out the complete lack of historical perspective employed by many euros here (ie, US history and foreign policy began prior to 2001).
You are right, US foreign policy began long before 2001. I for one definitely do not negate American interference in Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Chile, Cuba, Venezuela, Afghanistan (during the cold war), Somalia, Ethiopia etc. etc. when I'm considering US history.
Korea=UN action. Go ahead and bitch at the UK and Aussies for that one as well.
Vietnam=Initiated under French colonial rule.
How did the US interfere in Ethiopia exactly?
It's all that Cold War "interference" that countered Soviet influence and kept the USSR's attention away from Europe. You're welcome.

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

As for human rights: How long was Europe run by the feudal system? How about the crusades? Raping and pillaging of native peoples in the New World?
We have had a long, bloody history here in Europe and thankfully the majority of Europe is enjoying peaceful times in our age. No one here has any illusions regarding our violent past.
But there is selective memory, apparently. It's OK to go back to the start of the US and look at actions that, world-wide, were not considered out of the ordinary and complain about them, but we just kind of ignore the same in Europe (or their colonies) in the same discussion. Double standards ftl.

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

The benefit of being a fairly young country is that we don't have the size and variety of baggage that you guys do. But go ahead and keep trying to point out your moral superiority.
In your short and recent history you managed to wipe out the Indians and oppress black people right up until the last century; you are still suffering a banging hangover from the racial tension of your recent past. America has more baggage than the baggage department at 'Baggageville International Airport'. Your statement is the one that is ironically assuming a position of moral superiority.
There's no assumption of moral superiority from me...merely moral parity. Which seems to rub you the wrong way, apparently.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-06-13 05:50:35
PureFodder
Member
+225|6306

FEOS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I think KM was trying to point out the complete lack of historical perspective employed by many euros here (ie, US history and foreign policy began prior to 2001).

As for human rights: How long was Europe run by the feudal system? How about the crusades? Raping and pillaging of native peoples in the New World?

The benefit of being a fairly young country is that we don't have the size and variety of baggage that you guys do. But go ahead and keep trying to point out your moral superiority.
Same people, same baggage. The history of the American people tends to head straight back to Europe. The histories only divert during the war of independence, everything previous is as much my history as yours. The civil rights the US started with were fought for and won by Europeans.
But the first republic in Europe based itself on the new US model.

Regardless, you've made my point for me. The biases that framed much of our civil rights problems (particularly WRT the indigenous people here and the slaves) came straight from mother Europe.
Biases that we got rid of before the US did. Showing that the US was not the fore runner of these rights, but playing catch-up, exactly as I said.

FEOS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

In fact, for a young country, the amount of baggage made is impressive. The US is hardly innocent on the raping and murdering of native peoples topic. Many North American Indians around these days?
See above.
We stopped it before you did. The European offshoot lagged behind the rest of Europe, again showing that the US was simply not a leader in human rights and freedom. You can't blame the problems on Europe as the problems are every bit as much the fault of Europeans with descendants in Europe as Americans with descendants in Europe. Same people, same history, same blame.

FEOS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

If we go back before 2001 we have murderous attacks in East Asia killing millions. Attacks on South America, support of brutal opressive mass murdering dictatorships, overthrowing of democracies, sposorship of terrorist groups, terrorism against tiny nations like Cuba.
But European countries did none of the same?
We did plenty of that kind of thing, but in the post WWII era have done far less than the US, again showing that the US is lagging behind.

FEOS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Be glad people base their opinions of the US on recent history, it gets a lot worse if you go back further.
Same can be said for Europe.

PureFodder wrote:

As far as human rights go, the US has historically lagged behind Europe in pretty well every area except their first class freedom of speach laws, currently the US has far from the best human rights record. That's simply the reality of the situation.
And our system is on its way to correct that. The human right problem you decry involves (in relative terms) a handful of people. Compared to the 300+ million population of the US. Perspective.
Gitmo is by no means the only outstanding human rights issue in America. The US was trailing behind Europe well before the antics in Gitmo. See Human Rights Watch reports on the US for the painful details.
2008-06-13 06:26:47
JahManRed
wank
+646|6649|IRELAND

FEOS wrote:

Raping and pillaging of native peoples Americans in the New World?
2008-06-13 06:31:51
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
This is retarted.  The USA is a mere infant compared to you Europeans nations.  In its 200 years, I'd say the USA has progressed 10 times faster than ya'll.
What, you were dumped over there naked and had to bang stones together to light fires?
The US started from a base of parity with Europe and has lagged about 30 years ever since.
Slavery.
Segregation.
Death penalty.
Human rights - the subject of the OP - you've only just realised all men are to be treated equal and subject to habeas corpus.
Wasn't that in your constitution?

The US is still not close to catching up with the rest of the world.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2008-06-13 06:34:27
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6127|eXtreme to the maX
And our system is on its way to correct that. The human right problem you decry involves (in relative terms) a handful of people. Compared to the 300+ million population of the US. Perspective.
In the same way only a small number of Germans were actually in the SS, so gassing the jews was OK and can now be forgotten?
Is that the kind of perspective you're talking about?

Or maybe, the twin towers attacks were perpetrated by a true handful of people, no need to demonise and wage war against the whole arab world?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-06-13 06:36:08)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2008-06-13 07:20:21
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6571|CH/BR - in UK

Looks to me like I've walked into a pissing contest... /leaves thread
How is it useful to debate which country/continent is "better"?

-kon
2008-06-13 08:08:51
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6621|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

It's nice to see the US begin to catch up with the rest of the civillised world.
Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
In what year did it become okay for black people to sit at the front of the bus over there?
We dumped slavery in less than 100 years.. how about you my lord? How long was it that you were ruled by "descendants of god".
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-06-13 08:13:32
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6311|Éire

Kmarion wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
In what year did it become okay for black people to sit at the front of the bus over there?
We dumped slavery in less than 100 years.. how about you my lord? How long was it that you were ruled by "descendants of god".
I'm not the one getting up on a high horse talking about championing the cause of freedom.

...that's because it was only the landlords who had high horses here!
2008-06-13 08:18:30
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6621|132 and Bush

JahManRed wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Raping and pillaging of native peoples Americans in the New World?
Wanna go there? Your continent is saturated with the blood of innocents. It took us a few generations to wash the European out of us. You might also do a little research and find out what the native Americans were doing to european settlers (as well as themselves).

@ Braddock it's not a high horse. It was a direct response to Purefodders suggestion that America is so far behind. I dare you to find another country that has achieved so much in so little time. I'm sorry if that comes out overtly patriotic but I've got history on my side.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-06-13 08:19:03
JahManRed
wank
+646|6649|IRELAND

Kmarion wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Plz.. The United States has done more for freedom in two hundred years than the rest of the world has done in two thousand. Try to think beyond this little fart we call our lifetime on a more historically accurate scale.
In what year did it become okay for black people to sit at the front of the bus over there?
We dumped slavery in less than 100 years.. how about you my lord? How long was it that you were ruled by "descendants of god".
Like how your country send billions of military hardware to "descendants of god".

I think the USA has it its short life span matured quickly. The UK, Spain, Portugal and France spent 100s of years raping the world and it took media for the masses to let the people see what was being done in their name around the world to put a stop to it. The middle east/Gito etc pales into insignificance compared to some of the shit the colonials did in their time. Today you cant invade and pillage without the whole world watching it on youtube. This is why the USA's imperialism is under the spotlight today. It is old hat tho.
2008-06-13 08:29:39
JahManRed
wank
+646|6649|IRELAND

Kmarion wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Raping and pillaging of native peoples Americans in the New World?
Wanna go there? Your continent is saturated with the blood of innocents.
Yeah it is. We were invaded and forced to give up our lands to colonists. The natives of course didn't take this lightly and rebelled and thousands were slaughtered.Sound familiar?

 

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