Dental.. vision.. etcSoldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
Full coverage? You can have less than full coverage?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
free health care doesn't mean private health care isn't still available...usmarine2005 wrote:
Now my Mom recently had that same operation, for about half of that. And she did not have to wait too long. About 2 weeks. So how do we sell universal health care to the US, when stuff like this happens.....even though you all say it doesn't.
Ah!Kmarion wrote:
Dental.. vision.. etcSoldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
Full coverage? You can have less than full coverage?
We have private health-care too, if you're willing to pay.twiistaaa wrote:
free health care doesn't mean private health care isn't still available...usmarine2005 wrote:
Now my Mom recently had that same operation, for about half of that. And she did not have to wait too long. About 2 weeks. So how do we sell universal health care to the US, when stuff like this happens.....even though you all say it doesn't.
...i said I was going to bed hah
Last edited by Soldier-Of-Wasteland (2007-12-18 23:56:22)
In my last job, I actually got money back and I had full coverage. I only got back like 32 dollars a month...but I did not pay a dime for health care.twiistaaa wrote:
free health care doesn't mean private health care isn't still available...usmarine2005 wrote:
Now my Mom recently had that same operation, for about half of that. And she did not have to wait too long. About 2 weeks. So how do we sell universal health care to the US, when stuff like this happens.....even though you all say it doesn't.
Just a smidgen.
http://www.adph.org/allkids/
http://www.medicaid.alabama.gov/
http://health.hss.state.ak.us/dpa/programs/atap/
http://www.de.state.az.us/faa/cash.asp
http://www.de.state.az.us/faa/medical.asp
http://www.medicaid.state.ar.us/
http://www.teaboard.net/
http://www.cdss.ca.gov/cdssweb/
http://www.cdhs.state.co.us/fap/index.htm
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ocs/
http://www.dhss.delaware.gov/dss/medicaid.html
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fdd/programs/tefap/
http://www.dhs.dc.gov/dhs/cwp/view,a,3, … 30989|.asp
http://dfcs.dhr.georgia.gov/portal/site/DHR-DFCS/
https://www.realchoices.org/AGModules/F … x?FormID=3
http://dfcs.dhr.georgia.gov/portal/site/DHR-DFCS/
http://www.med-quest.us/contact/index.html
http://www.healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/Default.aspx
http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/default.htm
http://www.dhs.state.il.us/ts/fss/tanf.asp
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/
http://www.ed.gov/pubs/Biennial/332.html
http://www.in.gov/faqs.htm?faq_id=244
http://www.dhs.state.ia.us/dhs2005/dhs_ … icaid.html
http://www.ksinsurance.org/consumers/medicare.htm
http://www.dss.state.la.us/departments/ … rary_.html
http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/?id=92
http://www.maine.gov/dhhs/OIAS/
http://www.dhr.state.md.us/how/cashfood/tca.htm
http://www.michigan.gov/dhs/0,1607,7-12 … --,00.html
http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/groups/ … 05325.hcsp
Of course I could always fall back on the state if I were in dire economic condtions (the safety net). The United States pays more for healthcare per citizen than any other country. The actual cost is out of control though.
Our so called unisured look something like this... The young invicibles.
http://www.adph.org/allkids/
http://www.medicaid.alabama.gov/
http://health.hss.state.ak.us/dpa/programs/atap/
http://www.de.state.az.us/faa/cash.asp
http://www.de.state.az.us/faa/medical.asp
http://www.medicaid.state.ar.us/
http://www.teaboard.net/
http://www.cdss.ca.gov/cdssweb/
http://www.cdhs.state.co.us/fap/index.htm
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ocs/
http://www.dhss.delaware.gov/dss/medicaid.html
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fdd/programs/tefap/
http://www.dhs.dc.gov/dhs/cwp/view,a,3, … 30989|.asp
http://dfcs.dhr.georgia.gov/portal/site/DHR-DFCS/
https://www.realchoices.org/AGModules/F … x?FormID=3
http://dfcs.dhr.georgia.gov/portal/site/DHR-DFCS/
http://www.med-quest.us/contact/index.html
http://www.healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/Default.aspx
http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/default.htm
http://www.dhs.state.il.us/ts/fss/tanf.asp
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/
http://www.ed.gov/pubs/Biennial/332.html
http://www.in.gov/faqs.htm?faq_id=244
http://www.dhs.state.ia.us/dhs2005/dhs_ … icaid.html
http://www.ksinsurance.org/consumers/medicare.htm
http://www.dss.state.la.us/departments/ … rary_.html
http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/?id=92
http://www.maine.gov/dhhs/OIAS/
http://www.dhr.state.md.us/how/cashfood/tca.htm
http://www.michigan.gov/dhs/0,1607,7-12 … --,00.html
http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/groups/ … 05325.hcsp
Of course I could always fall back on the state if I were in dire economic condtions (the safety net). The United States pays more for healthcare per citizen than any other country. The actual cost is out of control though.
Our so called unisured look something like this... The young invicibles.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I did as well when I was at UPS. I picked a lower plan because my daughter was double covered between me and her mom.usmarine2005 wrote:
In my last job, I actually got money back and I had full coverage. I only got back like 32 dollars a month...but I did not pay a dime for health care.twiistaaa wrote:
free health care doesn't mean private health care isn't still available...usmarine2005 wrote:
Now my Mom recently had that same operation, for about half of that. And she did not have to wait too long. About 2 weeks. So how do we sell universal health care to the US, when stuff like this happens.....even though you all say it doesn't.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
hmmm...well so much for the "selling of the house" argument eh?Kmarion wrote:
I did as well when I was at UPS. I picked a lower plan because my daughter was double covered between me and her mom.usmarine2005 wrote:
In my last job, I actually got money back and I had full coverage. I only got back like 32 dollars a month...but I did not pay a dime for health care.twiistaaa wrote:
free health care doesn't mean private health care isn't still available...
So if uncle sams pay anyway, then it is universal care no? If I have no insurance at all here, the province automatically covers me, and I don't have to pay for anything. Is it the same for you?
If Sams pay, why in the case of someone who had cancer, did he need to pay 70000$ ?? I don't get it.
Here, if you make 0$/year, 10000$/year, or that you're a multimillionaire, it doesn't matter. If you go to the hospital for a simple bandaid, or the most complicated brain-surgery, you will never ever ever be billed for it. I watched the video, and at some point the lady mentioned something about being billed later (@ 3:23, roughly)! wtf is that lol, I thought Sam was paying!
I just remembered something, and would like to know how it would work in the US.. 3 years ago, I went, with my gf, back "home" to where I grew up, to show are my childhood place, which is in another province (thus another health-care system, since it is provincial), and she started te feel very ill. So we went to the hospital, waited maybe an hour at the most, and she went through many tests, including pregnancy, just in case. Turned out she had mono. But since she was from another province, she had no insurance, nothing except the basic provincial medicare, they got billed for the super amount of 0$.
And last winter (12 months ago. heh) she had very strong headaches, and even got her vision blurred. She went for a few brain scans and all, still uncovered, and stayed overnight at the hospital, and it cost nothing. And since then she had no job, she was not paying taxes, so she basically had all of that for free (including the mono thing)
And there is the case of one of my friends, who has some weird form of arthritis since like birth. She tried many types of medicine, treatments, experimental or not, and never paid a penny for that.
If Sams pay, why in the case of someone who had cancer, did he need to pay 70000$ ?? I don't get it.
Here, if you make 0$/year, 10000$/year, or that you're a multimillionaire, it doesn't matter. If you go to the hospital for a simple bandaid, or the most complicated brain-surgery, you will never ever ever be billed for it. I watched the video, and at some point the lady mentioned something about being billed later (@ 3:23, roughly)! wtf is that lol, I thought Sam was paying!
I just remembered something, and would like to know how it would work in the US.. 3 years ago, I went, with my gf, back "home" to where I grew up, to show are my childhood place, which is in another province (thus another health-care system, since it is provincial), and she started te feel very ill. So we went to the hospital, waited maybe an hour at the most, and she went through many tests, including pregnancy, just in case. Turned out she had mono. But since she was from another province, she had no insurance, nothing except the basic provincial medicare, they got billed for the super amount of 0$.
And last winter (12 months ago. heh) she had very strong headaches, and even got her vision blurred. She went for a few brain scans and all, still uncovered, and stayed overnight at the hospital, and it cost nothing. And since then she had no job, she was not paying taxes, so she basically had all of that for free (including the mono thing)
And there is the case of one of my friends, who has some weird form of arthritis since like birth. She tried many types of medicine, treatments, experimental or not, and never paid a penny for that.
Last edited by Soldier-Of-Wasteland (2007-12-19 01:14:20)
Americas healthcare costs per person are almost twice that of the next most expensive, American healthcare results in one of the lowest life expectancies and highest infant mortalities in the industrial world. The cost of Americas healthcare is rising faster than any other country and looks set to do so without forseeable limit. Americans rate their healthcare system much more disfavourably than western countries with socialised healthcare even when you ignore the opinions of those Americans who don't have healthcare coverage. 79% of Americans are dissatisfied with US healthcare. 69% think it's the governments responsability to ensure healthcare coverage for all Americans. 81% think it costs too much.
Unfortunately this isn't the whole story, 30% of Americans have put off seeking medical help due to the cost that they will incur from getting treated. 18% have put off treatment for a serious condition.
Is all this extra money that Americans are spending going into super extra fantastic healthcare?
No
On a per person basis, Ameicans waste almost as much on admin costs alone as British pay for their entire healthcare system. The American system wastes almost 10 times as much money per person on admin as a typical socialised medical sytem.
Unfortunately this isn't the whole story, 30% of Americans have put off seeking medical help due to the cost that they will incur from getting treated. 18% have put off treatment for a serious condition.
Is all this extra money that Americans are spending going into super extra fantastic healthcare?
No
On a per person basis, Ameicans waste almost as much on admin costs alone as British pay for their entire healthcare system. The American system wastes almost 10 times as much money per person on admin as a typical socialised medical sytem.
Tort reform FTW.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
From the European PoV I would have to say that universal healthcare is and should be a basic part of the living standard that comes with being in Europe. The fact that it suffers from massive inefficienies is irrelevant - it's a necessity. If education is wholly tax-funded then why should it not be the same for healthcare - a far more critical necessity to ensure the needy stay afloat in a tough world. Private schemes operating in parallel mean you also have the best of both worlds. I don't see the issue with universal healthcare in Europe - so you have to wait for an operation if you're poor: big wow. The problem in the US I think is that it's almost too late for them to bring in a system like that - it's practically impossible.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-19 02:12:59)
The example of the old woman in the OP is highlights the difference between emergency surgery and elective surgery. I fall off my bike and break my leg= emergency surgery. If I need a knee reconstruction 1 year later = elective surgery. The difference being that in an emergency I would expect the hospital to cover me no questions asked. If I elected to have surgery then I would have to join a long waiting list to get fixed up for free. If I wanted to get fixed quicker then I would need to pay. The main thing is its there if I need it. The govt misspends billions of your dollars on unnecessary stuff, your taxes should go to something that actually helps people.
It's not an impossibility, int's an innevitability. Simply the costs of Americas healthcare system are rising well above the rise in average earnings and when the obviously wildly pro business FT starts claiming that private healthcare has no future it's a question of when not if.CameronPoe wrote:
From the European PoV I would have to say that universal healthcare is and should be a basic part of the living standard that comes with being in Europe. The fact that it suffers from massive inefficienies is irrelevant - it's a necessity. If education is wholly tax-funded then why should it not be the same for healthcare - a far more critical necessity to ensure the needy stay afloat in a tough world. Private schemes operating in parallel mean you also have the best of both worlds. I don't see the issue with universal healthcare in Europe - so you have to wait for an operation if you're poor: big wow. The problem in the US I think is that it's almost too late for them to bring in a system like that - it's practically impossible.
France has Universal Health Care too.usmarine2005 wrote:
I really hope this goes through, because if you ask me, "free health care for all" does not mean this.
"the case of Yvonne Watts, a 75 year-old British woman who paid £3,900 (5,450 euros) for a hip replacement in France because she was not prepared to wait a year for an operation in Britain."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7150879.stm
Now my Mom recently had that same operation, for about half of that. And she did not have to wait too long. About 2 weeks. So how do we sell universal health care to the US, when stuff like this happens.....even though you all say it doesn't.
People should pay with proportion to how much they use healthcare services. I haven't been to a GP, or a Hospital in ages now (touch wood) so why should I have to pay the same as someone who, because they're a fucking retard, has to go to the hospital every other damn day.
I agree with CamPoe that it's just a standard of living. We're used to having free education and health care - and why should we pay for either? Inefficiencies are still better than having nothing at all. I expect health care... I pay taxes for it (gladly), because if anything ever happens, and I don't have sufficient money, I'm not screwed.
I think that people who do unhealthy things knowingly should get taxed through those products/services...
-konfusion
I think that people who do unhealthy things knowingly should get taxed through those products/services...
-konfusion
That msses the main point, the private healthcare system is massively less efficient than a single government run one. No western healthcare system comes even remotely close to the inherent inefficiency of Americas system.konfusion wrote:
I agree with CamPoe that it's just a standard of living. We're used to having free education and health care - and why should we pay for either? Inefficiencies are still better than having nothing at all. I expect health care... I pay taxes for it (gladly), because if anything ever happens, and I don't have sufficient money, I'm not screwed.
I think that people who do unhealthy things knowingly should get taxed through those products/services...
-konfusion
We need a two tiered system. I'm all for having nearly free medical schools, government subsidized, and the graduates from those schools can work in government hospitals and treat anyone who wants to walk in FREE OF CHARGE. We'll pay for that system with tax dollars, cap the amount of money made by the doctors at something like 75,000 a year, and if you aren't paying for your own healthcare that's where you'll go. The equipment will come from the low bidder, etc.
IF you are willing to PAY, then you can go to whatever private institution you want, with exorbitantly paid physicians, shiny new equipment, and all the best linens and food, and you can eat the cost yourself.
I GUARANTEE you that the smartest and best among us will find a way to pay for their med school, and will work in the private hospitals, and we'll be stuck with altruistic mediocre doctors in the free hospitals, but so goes it. If you want more, pay for more. Our free public transportation isn't made by Mercedes either.
Seems fairest to me. Those with no money to pay can not reasonably expect that they will get the same product that those who can and are willing to pay will get.
IF you are willing to PAY, then you can go to whatever private institution you want, with exorbitantly paid physicians, shiny new equipment, and all the best linens and food, and you can eat the cost yourself.
I GUARANTEE you that the smartest and best among us will find a way to pay for their med school, and will work in the private hospitals, and we'll be stuck with altruistic mediocre doctors in the free hospitals, but so goes it. If you want more, pay for more. Our free public transportation isn't made by Mercedes either.
Seems fairest to me. Those with no money to pay can not reasonably expect that they will get the same product that those who can and are willing to pay will get.
An easier way to do it is to open up to freer competition from foreign doctors. By allowing foreigners to take and pass stringent tests in their own country in order to become qualified to become doctors in the US and reduce restrictions on professionals entering and working in the US, it will drive down doctors wages form the silly rates that America currently pays.Dersmikner wrote:
We need a two tiered system. I'm all for having nearly free medical schools, government subsidized, and the graduates from those schools can work in government hospitals and treat anyone who wants to walk in FREE OF CHARGE. We'll pay for that system with tax dollars, cap the amount of money made by the doctors at something like 75,000 a year, and if you aren't paying for your own healthcare that's where you'll go. The equipment will come from the low bidder, etc.
IF you are willing to PAY, then you can go to whatever private institution you want, with exorbitantly paid physicians, shiny new equipment, and all the best linens and food, and you can eat the cost yourself.
I GUARANTEE you that the smartest and best among us will find a way to pay for their med school, and will work in the private hospitals, and we'll be stuck with altruistic mediocre doctors in the free hospitals, but so goes it. If you want more, pay for more. Our free public transportation isn't made by Mercedes either.
Seems fairest to me. Those with no money to pay can not reasonably expect that they will get the same product that those who can and are willing to pay will get.
If free trade in physicians brought doctors’ salaries down to European levels, the savings would be close to $100,000 per doctor, approximately $80 billion a year. This is 10 times as large as standard estimates of the gains from NAFTA.
So I should not have my taxes used for roads, I don't have a car. I am done wth school and dont have kids, so I should not pay for schools, and not a freakin single penny to the army they don't need my money. I never called the police, why should I fund that? I don't support the prime-minister, why should I pay his salary? Why some of my money goes to war veterans when I wasn't even born when they fought? We can go far with this..
I mean it is not fair that a rich fucker can have all the cares he needs but because one is poor he cannot get help. That is the advantage of UHC, it treats everyone equally, redardless of their income. If my contribution helped someone on the otherside of the country get his body fixed because some freak decided it was fun to shoot people, then I am happy. With the US mentality, I see it has if my mom was in need at the hospital and needed cash to get help, she could fuck off because I will only pay for myself. My kid got injutred playing hockey? fuck you kid get a job and pay for it yourself..
I mean it is not fair that a rich fucker can have all the cares he needs but because one is poor he cannot get help. That is the advantage of UHC, it treats everyone equally, redardless of their income. If my contribution helped someone on the otherside of the country get his body fixed because some freak decided it was fun to shoot people, then I am happy. With the US mentality, I see it has if my mom was in need at the hospital and needed cash to get help, she could fuck off because I will only pay for myself. My kid got injutred playing hockey? fuck you kid get a job and pay for it yourself..
I got fixed for free. Thanks TRICARE.
I didn't know your taxes that go to the war funding help people in Iraq and Afghanistan get help, while it could benefit your health instead
It doesn't matter where someone lives. That's like saying why should you pay for a Police station in New York.Kmarion wrote:
Why should I (the guy in Florida) have to pay for USM (the guy in BFE Ohio) to get the tractor hitch removed from his ass?usmarine2005 wrote:
After all, I do the damage to myself by eating shit ass food and drinking booze, ?
Just shut the fuck up and talk about the subject. Jesus fucking christ. How many times are you going to say that?Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
I didn't know your taxes that go to the war funding help people in Iraq and Afghanistan get help, while it could benefit your health instead