G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|7075|Sea to globally-cooled sea
We who call ourselves Christians encounter salvation on a daily basis, with each decision we make and in our interactions with other people.  We have chosen to live our lives a certain way because we believe it will lead to our salvation.  Our promise of salvation is rooted in the words of Christ himself, who spoke "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

We all know these words, Christians and non-Christians alike.

However, there are two common interpretations of this popular passage: that of protestants and that of Catholics.  Protestants read the above and have christened this one sentence as the key to salvation.  If we accept that Christ is the only son of God who was sent to forgive our sins and give us eternal life, we will achieve this eternal life.  If we do not accept Christ, we have chosen damnation, and there is no way around it: believe or perish.  Protestants will also say that in John 3:3 where Christ says, "“Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" it is further evidence that only those who consciously call themselves Christians and who have been baptized can be saved.

In light of the recent Virginia Tech massacre we are faced with the question of salvation in a particular way.

Israeli Professor dies protecting students

There is a broader issue at hand.  This affects not just one Jewish professor but anyone who has not been baptized.  We know that "No one has greater love than this, that one should lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)  We also know that "...love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.  Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John:4:7-8)  This professor performed a great act of love by using himself as a barrier and enabling his students to escape with their lives through the windows.

What this professor did was a beautiful act that many Christians in history of wanted to do, that is: to lay down their life for another, to be a martyr.  Without a doubt, this professor did what Christ asked us to do.

The question at hand is: Does the fact that he is not a Christian prevent him from entering into the kingdom of heaven?

The Catholic Church teaches that one does not need be baptized by water to be saved.  "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church: 847).

On a final note: please, contribute positively to this topic.  All of us who care about these things can learn a great deal about our faith and the faith of our brothers if this topic goes in the direction I hope.  Please, if you have pointless hate towards my topic, do not derail this thread.  Start a new topic, entitle it "G3|Genius is a moron" and take that thread where you wish.

-Jim
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7185|Salt Lake City

It's no secret that I have disdain for organized religion in general.  I do have several special problems with Catholic dogma, but this quote you made, makes more sense than most I have read, assuming you believe in a loving benevolent God.

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church: 847).
Superglueman
Member
+21|6809|The Great South Land
Those with a righteous heart will go to heaven, those with a self righteous heart will not
bretteamon
Member
+1|6668
Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
   " 'the stone you builders rejected,
      which has become the capstone.[a]'[b] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." -Act 4:10-12. (1 Thessalonians 5:9),(2 Timothy 2:10), (Hebrews 9:28), (John 10:27-29), (John 14:6). All of these verse point to Jesus as being the only way to salvation. The Bible also clearly points out that works, acts of love and good deeds, cannot get you into heaven.
Ephesians 2:8-10     
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6894|The Land of Scott Walker
John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7098

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Yeah that's how I'd always heard it... No matter how nice you are, if you didn't like Jesus, you're not going to heaven.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7185|Salt Lake City

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I've met believers that were further from the message that Jesus put out than those who don't partake of a particular religion.  Think about what Superglueman wrote, and then about what you just said.

I'll take the honest, decent, caring, hard working people over those of self righteous self indignation any day.  If there really is a heaven and hell, then bring on the flames, because I would rather associate with those honest, decent people than live in some phony paradise run some by some indignant god that would sooner take the parasites of the world that believed in Jesus over those that actually practiced his word.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2007-04-18 12:09:43)

ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7098

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I've met believers that were further from the message that Jesus put out than those who don't partake of a particular religion.  Think about what Superglueman wrote, and then about what you just said.

I'll take the honest, decent, caring, hard working people over those of self righteous self indignation any day.  If there really is a heaven and hell, then bring on the flames, because I would rather associate with those honest, decent people than live in some phony paradise run some by some indignant god that would sooner take the parasites of the world that believed in Jesus over those that actually practiced his word.
Yeah, I agree, I personally think it would make more sense to be that way. Who knows, though.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6987|Long Island, New York
I'm not christian, but I've always thought if a person led a life of good deeds, and righteous ways (like that professor did), God (saying he exists for the sake of argument) would forgive him/her for not believing in him and let him into heaven for his good ways in life.

Last edited by Poseidon (2007-04-18 12:25:45)

TheDarkRaven
ATG's First Disciple
+263|7073|Birmingham, UK

Poseidon wrote:

I'm not christian, but I've always thought if a person led a life of good deeds, and righteous ways (like that professor did), God would forgive him/her for not believing in him and let him into heaven for his good ways in life.
That's been my line of thought, of late. It seems ridiculous that you can preach of a 'compassionate' God who would still willingly condemn 'his creation' for having a strong faith in something else, but still mainly following to his wills.
chittydog
less busy
+586|7284|Kubra, Damn it!

Superglueman wrote:

Those with a righteous heart will go to heaven, those with a self righteous heart will not
False. If that were true, God himself would not be there. If the way you conduct your life is irrelevant and the only way in is to kiss his ass, then I see overwhelming proof that God himself is not righeous, only self-righteous.

I want no part of a system that works this way.
topthrill05
Member
+125|7027|Rochester NY USA
If I was born in a Muslim family I would most likely be Muslim and vise versa. That is something we have no control over and I would imagine that god understands that.
chittydog
less busy
+586|7284|Kubra, Damn it!

Well said, topthrill!
topal63
. . .
+533|7167
Why wouldn't everyone go to heaven - period? Everyone! Including satan, Hitler, etc, the Virgina-Tech shooter, simply everyone - regardless of any evil (any level of evil) committed in a incredibly short temporary life subject to the limitations of the human mind? Were talking about eternal punishment vs a moment in time done and gone.

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-18 14:39:10)

IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7191|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
Did Jesus himself not say "In my Fathers mansion there are many rooms" ? - i'd imagine that he was using that metaphor for a reason..
topal63
. . .
+533|7167
Isaiah 45:6-8
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
It seems that God must encompass both the horrible-terrible-evil destroyer aspect as well as the benevolent, beautiful, loving aspect - both aspects would be contained in scope within God or it is not God.

Why wouldn't everyone go to heaven - period? Everyone! Including satan, Hitler, etc, the Virgina-Tech shooter, simply everyone - regardless of any evil (any level of evil) committed in a incredibly short temporary life subject to the limitations of the human mind? Were talking about eternal punishment vs a moment in time done and gone.
Considering this, if God created everything, then he created the Good and the Evil. Isn't God's victory over evil (what he created) incomplete  - if this does not happen?

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-18 14:39:53)

kiteboarderni
Member
+62|7129
nice read! you my friend are a legend
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6917

G3|Genius wrote:

We who call ourselves Christians encounter salvation on a daily basis, with each decision we make and in our interactions with other people.  We have chosen to live our lives a certain way because we believe it will lead to our salvation.  Our promise of salvation is rooted in the words of Christ himself, who spoke "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

We all know these words, Christians and non-Christians alike.

However, there are two common interpretations of this popular passage: that of protestants and that of Catholics.  Protestants read the above and have christened this one sentence as the key to salvation.  If we accept that Christ is the only son of God who was sent to forgive our sins and give us eternal life, we will achieve this eternal life.  If we do not accept Christ, we have chosen damnation, and there is no way around it: believe or perish.  Protestants will also say that in John 3:3 where Christ says, "“Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" it is further evidence that only those who consciously call themselves Christians and who have been baptized can be saved.

In light of the recent Virginia Tech massacre we are faced with the question of salvation in a particular way.

Israeli Professor dies protecting students

There is a broader issue at hand.  This affects not just one Jewish professor but anyone who has not been baptized.  We know that "No one has greater love than this, that one should lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)  We also know that "...love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.  Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John:4:7-8)  This professor performed a great act of love by using himself as a barrier and enabling his students to escape with their lives through the windows.

What this professor did was a beautiful act that many Christians in history of wanted to do, that is: to lay down their life for another, to be a martyr.  Without a doubt, this professor did what Christ asked us to do.

The question at hand is: Does the fact that he is not a Christian prevent him from entering into the kingdom of heaven?

The Catholic Church teaches that one does not need be baptized by water to be saved.  "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church: 847).

On a final note: please, contribute positively to this topic.  All of us who care about these things can learn a great deal about our faith and the faith of our brothers if this topic goes in the direction I hope.  Please, if you have pointless hate towards my topic, do not derail this thread.  Start a new topic, entitle it "G3|Genius is a moron" and take that thread where you wish.

-Jim
You answered the question in your post by saying "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life", by by saying that John says that anyone who beleives in any sort of God will have eternal life.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6894|The Land of Scott Walker

ghettoperson wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Yeah that's how I'd always heard it... No matter how nice you are, if you didn't like Jesus, you're not going to heaven.
It’s not about being nice and liking Jesus, it’s about belief and faith.  Heaven requires perfection and none of us can work hard enough or do enough good deeds to make ourselves perfect.  That’s where salvation comes in. 

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

I've met believers that were further from the message that Jesus put out than those who don't partake of a particular religion.  Think about what Superglueman wrote, and then about what you just said.

I'll take the honest, decent, caring, hard working people over those of self righteous self indignation any day.  If there really is a heaven and hell, then bring on the flames, because I would rather associate with those honest, decent people than live in some phony paradise run some by some indignant god that would sooner take the parasites of the world that believed in Jesus over those that actually practiced his word.
The way some Christians treat people is terrible, Agent.  I do my best, but I’m certainly no saint.  I’m truly sorry if the only Christians you’ve encountered are the self-righteous mean variety.  The Bible describes Jesus’ confrontations with the self-righteous Pharisees and His contempt for their attitude.  No one has a right to look down their nose at anyone because salvation isn’t about being better, it’s about being forgiven.  We’re all on the same level in the human race.  As the verse says, “God so loved the world . . .”.  Those who are self-righteous forget there’s absolutely nothing any of us can do to be good enough. 

I hope you have the opportunity to meet people like the ones in my church.  When you walk in, you can feel how friendly and down to earth these people are.  They are the honest, caring, decent people you describe.  For 10 years of my life (until I graduated) I attended a church that had people that were the definition of self-righteous.  They pissed me off to no end with their high and mighty attitude.  As you said, that is the polar opposite of how Christ taught us to treat one another.  It’s a huge source of frustration when I see Christians act as though they're better than others.  In all seriousness, I truly hope you don’t make your decision about the after life based on the failure of some Christians to live out the teachings of Jesus.  To ask you to look past their behavior is a tall order, I know.  I truly hope you can find it within yourself to consider the Christians who are kind and decent.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6999|CH/BR - in UK

I agree with Agent_Dung_Bomb.
And to Stingray24 - you make me respect Christians a lot more. I would probably have more respect for religion if less people thought they were better than everyone else. I wish there were more people like you.
I believe that, if there is a god, he should let all in, regardless of faith - what counts for me is good deeds you do in your life, and how you live it. If you have faith and use it to justify your weaknesses, I think that's wrong.
In the end, it's not your faith that counts - it's your intentions.

-konfusion
@the person who said "irregardless" - was that an American Dad pun, or simply bad grammar?
topal63
. . .
+533|7167

konfusion wrote:

@the person who said "irregardless" - was that an American Dad pun, or simply bad grammar?
the @person...

It's non-standard (a double negative) - so yeah sure it's bad grammar. It is not a pun (What is "American Dad?" I don't even know what you mean?).

@Stingray!
Thanks for the cartoon info... :)

@konfusion
Help me out with the pun. If it could be an "American Dad" pun how would it be one?

Last edited by topal63 (2007-04-18 15:23:05)

agent146
Member
+127|6836|Jesus Land aka Canada
Ya why not? ofcourse the prof would go to heaven- its does not matter if your from a different a relgion, its depends if you have been a good human being. and besides who said the christians are always right (what if its? heck who even said there is a heaven? G3|Genius, you could replace in your post "christians"  with jews/ muslims and verses from their respective holy books, there will always be "arrogant self righteous" types in any religion, there can be humble religious people, there are also "arrogant" non religious people, and there are also loving and friendly non religious people. fyi i was born in a roman catholic family. And I say all I say is "You believe what ever you believe; who can say your wrong? i can't prove that"
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7124|Canberra, AUS
I've asked (and answered) this question several times, I don't think I need to give an answer.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Fuzzball_the_Shooter
The Photographer.
+81|7154|Central Valley,California
I don't believe Jesus was the son of God and I'm pretty sure I'm going to heaven. If I wasn't, that would be pretty fucked up, no? I think people go to heaven for whether they did good and go to hell if they did bad. Religion is just faith.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|7114|NT, like Mick Dundee

topal63 wrote:

Isaiah 45:6-8
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
It seems that God must encompass both the horrible-terrible-evil destroyer aspect as well as the benevolent, beautiful, loving aspect - both aspects would be contained in scope within God or it is not God.

Why wouldn't everyone go to heaven - period? Everyone! Including satan, Hitler, etc, the Virgina-Tech shooter, simply everyone - regardless of any evil (any level of evil) committed in a incredibly short temporary life subject to the limitations of the human mind? Were talking about eternal punishment vs a moment in time done and gone.
Considering this, if God created everything, then he created the Good and the Evil. Isn't God's victory over evil (what he created) incomplete  - if this does not happen?
Once again the tag team of topal and Spark have ended another thread based on religion. Though this time Spark got lazy it seems.

topal, go write a book on theology, philosophy and the universe... I'd pay good money for that considering the thoughts you've posted on this site before.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

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