BF2S Forums Constructive Liberal/Conservative debate

FOR EACH QUESTION, WRITE -4 to +4.  Negative means you disagree, zero means you don't care, and positive means you strongly agree with the statement.   You can either post your answers or keep them to yourself, whichever is easier for you.

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1)  The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while radicals and protestors are usually just "loud mouthed punks" showing off their ignorance.

-2

2)  Women should have to promise to obey their husbands when they get married.

-4

3)  Our country desperately needs a strong leader who will do the right thing to stamp out the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.

-4

4)  Gays and lesbians are just as healthy and moral as anybody else.

+4

5)  It is always better to trust the judgment and proper authorities in government and religion than to listen to the idiots that just want to create doubt and cynicism.

-2

6)  Atheists and others what have rebelled against established religions are no doubt good and virtuous people.

+3

7)  The only way our country will get through the oncoming crises is to get back to our traditional values as good Americans, put some leaders with balls in power, and silence the pundits and protestors spreading lies.

-4

8)  There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps that allow the whole family to participate.

+4

9)  Our country needs free thinkers who have the courage to defy tradition, even if this upsets people.

+4

10)  Our country will be destroyed someday if we do not smash the perversions eating away at the foundation of our society.

-4

11)  Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different than everyone else.

+4

12)  Good old-fashioned American values still show the best way to live.

0

13)  You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority's view by protesting for abortion rights, animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.

+1

14)  What the USA needs is a strong, determined leader who will crush the evils that surround us and take us back to our true path.

-4

15)  Some of the best people in the country are those who are challenging government, criticizing outdated religious beliefs, and ignoring "the way things are supposed to be done."

+2

16)  God's laws about abortion, pornography, and marriage must be strictly followed before it is too late, and those that break them must be strongly punished.

-4

17)  There are many radical, immoral people in the US today who are trying to ruin it for their own selfish purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action.

-2

18)  A "woman's place" today should be wherever she wants to be.

+4

19)  Our country will be great if we honor the ways of our forefathers, give service to our nation and our leaders, and lock up or banish those that are unpatriotic.

-4

20)  There is no "ONE right way" to live, everyone creates their own way.

+2

21)  Homos and feminazis should be praised for being brave enough to defy tradition.

-1

22)  This country would work a lot better if certain groups of jackasses would just shut their pie holes and accept their place.

-4

The whole thing: -4.

This test, like so many other similar ones, is downright ridiculous. It asks questions in the extreme, and focuses primarily on protestors, homos, feminism and religion. I cut out -3 through -1 and 1 through 3, since I'm short on time. So what is it, a line chart?

1)  The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while radicals and protestors are usually just "loud mouthed punks" showing off their ignorance.
0

2)  Women should have to promise to obey their husbands when they get married.
-4

3)  Our country desperately needs a strong leader who will do the right thing to stamp out the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.
-4

4)  Gays and lesbians are just as healthy and moral as anybody else.
0

5)  It is always better to trust the judgment and proper authorities in government and religion than to listen to the idiots that just want to create doubt and cynicism.
0

6)  Atheists and others what have rebelled against established religions are no doubt good and virtuous people.
0

7)  The only way our country will get through the oncoming crises is to get back to our traditional values as good Americans, put some leaders with balls in power, and silence the pundits and protestors spreading lies.
0

8)  There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps that allow the whole family to participate.
-4

9)  Our country needs free thinkers who have the courage to defy tradition, even if this upsets people.
+4

10)  Our country will be destroyed someday if we do not smash the perversions eating away at the foundation of our society.
+4

11)  Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different than everyone else.
0

12)  Good old-fashioned American values still show the best way to live.
+4

13)  You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority's view by protesting for abortion rights, animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.
0

14)  What the USA needs is a strong, determined leader who will crush the evils that surround us and take us back to our true path.
+4

15)  Some of the best people in the country are those who are challenging government, criticizing outdated religious beliefs, and ignoring "the way things are supposed to be done."
0

16)  God's laws about abortion, pornography, and marriage must be strictly followed before it is too late, and those that break them must be strongly punished.
0

17)  There are many radical, immoral people in the US today who are trying to ruin it for their own selfish purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action.
0

18)  A "woman's place" today should be wherever she wants to be.
+4

19)  Our country will be great if we honor the ways of our forefathers, give service to our nation and our leaders, and lock up or banish those that are unpatriotic.
0

20)  There is no "ONE right way" to live, everyone creates their own way.
+4

21)  Homos and feminazis should be praised for being brave enough to defy tradition.
0

22)  This country would work a lot better if certain groups of jackasses would just shut their pie holes and accept their place.
-4

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-04-04 10:57:42)

topal63 wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

This test, like so many other similar ones, is downright ridiculous. It asks questions in the extreme, and focuses primarily on protestors, homos and religion. My total is '8', assuming it's a line chart.

True... but I still want to see the results - the ridiculous line chart.

Yep.

1)  The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while radicals and protestors are usually just "loud mouthed punks" showing off their ignorance.

-4

2)  Women should have to promise to obey their husbands when they get married.

-4

3)  Our country desperately needs a strong leader who will do the right thing to stamp out the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.

-4

4)  Gays and lesbians are just as healthy and moral as anybody else.

+4

5)  It is always better to trust the judgment and proper authorities in government and religion than to listen to the idiots that just want to create doubt and cynicism.

-4

6)  Atheists and others what have rebelled against established religions are no doubt good and virtuous people.

+3

7)  The only way our country will get through the oncoming crises is to get back to our traditional values as good Americans, put some leaders with balls in power, and silence the pundits and protestors spreading lies.

-2

8)  There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps that allow the whole family to participate.

+3

9)  Our country needs free thinkers who have the courage to defy tradition, even if this upsets people.

+4

10)  Our country will be destroyed someday if we do not smash the perversions eating away at the foundation of our society.

-4

11)  Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different than everyone else.

+4

12)  Good old-fashioned American values still show the best way to live.

-3

13)  You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority's view by protesting for abortion rights, animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.

+3 (for everything except animal rights)

14)  What the USA needs is a strong, determined leader who will crush the evils that surround us and take us back to our true path.

0 (sounds too religious)

15)  Some of the best people in the country are those who are challenging government, criticizing outdated religious beliefs, and ignoring "the way things are supposed to be done."

+4

16)  God's laws about abortion, pornography, and marriage must be strictly followed before it is too late, and those that break them must be strongly punished.

-4

17)  There are many radical, immoral people in the US today who are trying to ruin it for their own selfish purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action.

+2 (replace immoral with religious)

18)  A "woman's place" today should be wherever she wants to be.

+4

19)  Our country will be great if we honor the ways of our forefathers, give service to our nation and our leaders, and lock up or banish those that are unpatriotic.

-4

20)  There is no "ONE right way" to live, everyone creates their own way.

+4

21)  Homos and feminazis should be praised for being brave enough to defy tradition.

+2 (Homos yes, feminazis no)

22)  This country would work a lot better if certain groups of jackasses would just shut their pie holes and accept their place.

+2 (if the certain groups include radical Christian fundamentalists)

Ah well, was hoping to see both sides post loud and proud...anyways.

Scoring is as follows:
Throw out the first 2 questions.  Those were warm-ups and even the most radical right would probably disagree.

Questions 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 19, and 22 score as follows:  -4 = 1 point to +4 = 9 points
The remainder is scored in the inverse.  Now you can total them.

This is actually your Authoritarian scale, which is one aspect of the left-right paradigm.  The other is your economic attitude (socialism -> capitalism), but we're just looking at the "personal freedom" axis for now.

20 to 40 = Anarchist
40 to 75 = Classic Liberal
75 to 100 = Libertarian
100 to 120 = Classic Conservative
120 to 140 = Authoritarian
140+ = Fascist

Lowest possible score is 20 and highest is 180.  Average North Americans (tests conducted on University students AND their parents) in their 20's score around 75, while their parents (Age 45+) average is 90.  Admittedly these averages will be skewed due to the students attending public university (bastions of liberalism!) and generally having parents of similar education.  Averages in targetted groups like those attending religious colleges, military personnel, or the uneducated may produce slightly different averages.

Results also can shift radically in times of national crises or prosperity but tend to return to average over the course of several months or sometimes years.

Everyone seems to have some sort of hard-coded genetic factor as a starting point and this carries with them into early childhood.  Your parents have (obviously) the most influence on your early development.  For example, future conservatives tend to cry more and longer when first separated from their parents than future liberals.  Once this period is over though, future conservatives tend to do the typical "boy" thing of establishing a playground hierarchy and become very organized and competitive in their play, while future liberals tend to direct their play more towards exploration and "pushing their boundaries", with less regard for safety and social structure.

Later in life, your experiences then further mold your personality, such as -

Public Schooling/Home Schooling/Private Schooling

Having an accident or personal crisis as a teen and your results (coming out of doing something risky unscathed makes you more liberal, coming out of an experience with a lot of pain/punishment makes you more conservative, not having any real experiences makes you more conservative)

Your parent's level of strictness (makes you more conservative)

Your parent's Authoritarian outlook (no matter how they tried to raise you, their attitudes rub off whether you like it or not)

Religious background (makes you more conservative)

Literacy Rate (the greater variety of things you read, the more liberal you get)

Level of Education (More education makes you more liberal across the board)

Having Children (makes you more "liberal" when they are around, then you return to your previous level when they leave home) - as a side note, defense lawyers for pornography cases dream of juries filled with middle-aged housewives that have had 2 or more kids.

Living in a foreign country (this seems to be the single biggest pro-liberal jump you can make on the scale, shifting the average person 10 points down)

Rich/poor has NO statistical effect on your authoritarian axis, nor does race or gender.  Where you grow up surprisingly doesn't either, you just become better at hiding your views one way or another when surrounded by people of the opposite attitude.
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Conservative framing, why we can't understand each other -

This isn't an attack on conservatism, but its just how liberal/conservatives think (again, being very clear, talking about the Authoritarian Axis ONLY).  Basically it boils down to liberals see the world in shades of gray and conservatives see in black and white.  George II summed it up pretty well when he told a reporter "Look, my job isn't to nuance." and the famous "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."

Another factor is the "safety" factor.  For conservatives it is all about safety.  "Is it safe for our kids?" "Safety in numbers." "Safety in being on the side of the authorities." "Safety in being on the side of God." "Safety in tradition."  "Safety in what is known." It's no coincidence that police forces are often referred to as "public safety officers" or even "Homeland Security" (security = safety).  New and foreign ideas and people are simply not safe (and therefore not "good") until unequivically proven otherwise.  It leads to political views such as having the strongest military is of tantamount importance and turning a blind eye to losing personal liberties so long as we are kept safer.  There is an enemy lurking around every street corner, in every dark alley, and even sometimes among us, and we must be kept safe from this.  Cheney's "1% Doctrine" is a great example of this line of thinking...that if there is even a 1% chance of something bad happening, we must do everything in our power to eradicate the source before it happens.  You can also think of it as the conformity factor, there is safety in being like and thinking like those around you...refer to Murphy's Laws of Combat "Try not to be conspicuous, the enemy may be low on ammo."

Liberal thought process, on the other hand, relies on "humanism" and rational thinking.  Although being rational is generally thought of as a positive thing, the downside is that being rational implies balancing risks and taking the course of action most likely to produce a positive outcome...this is not always good, as the road to hell can be paved in good intentions (very much a "conservative" saying).  Take for historical example of how Tzarist Russia threw out their king and replaced the system with Stalinist Communism (a process of several years).  The original revolutionary leaders were very liberal in their intentions, but the profound social changes and attitudes made by the revolution happened too fast for the people to really grasp the concept, and this quickly warped from one type of nasty authoritarianism to a worse form.  This is one example of the "Law of Unintended Consequences" which, being a law of nature, hits both liberal and conservative policy below the belt on a regular basis without prejudice.

The upside of liberal thought is that the crippling fear which keeps conservatives in line simply does not apply.  Personal views are not neatly lumped together in one block but can be individually sorted.  New facts and information can be easily integrated and attitudes can be revised without the stigma of being a "traitor" or "flip-flopper".  The "humanist" component of liberal thought allows for diplomacy, allowing deals to be reached where both parties benefit.

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Ok, floor is open.  The text above is mine based on probably about 20 sources and studies I've read and looked at since I became interested in why my country went to hell after Sept. 11th and how the neo-cons were able to hijack what was once a very balanced system.  If anyone is interested for real on this subject I'll put together a list of sources later.

My opinion is that a free nation cannot function properly without a mix of conservative leaders (looking out for our safety and keeping progress to a digestible pace) and liberal leadership (looking out for our personal freedom and progressing our society) at the helm and kept well in-check.  Unfortunately, this went to hell when a "unitary decider" (divider) came to the helm, along with the corruption and abuse that one-party rule and concentrated control always brings.  Bush's deeply rooted fears and cowardice has touched all parts of our politics and discourse, as well as the money-making corporations that feed into our society's reflection of such fears.

Again, floor is open...discuss.

1)  The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while radicals and protestors are usually just "loud mouthed punks" showing off their ignorance.

+1 - 3 points

2)  Women should have to promise to obey their husbands when they get married.

-2 - 6 points

3)  Our country desperately needs a strong leader who will do the right thing to stamp out the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.

+3 - 8 points

4)  Gays and lesbians are just as healthy and moral as anybody else.

+3 - 2 points

5)  It is always better to trust the judgment and proper authorities in government and religion than to listen to the idiots that just want to create doubt and cynicism.

-2 - 3 points

6)  Atheists and others what have rebelled against established religions are no doubt good and virtuous people.

+2  - 2 points

7)  The only way our country will get through the oncoming crises is to get back to our traditional values as good Americans, put some leaders with balls in power, and silence the pundits and protestors spreading lies.

-3 - 2 points

8)  There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps that allow the whole family to participate.

+1 - 3 points

9)  Our country needs free thinkers who have the courage to defy tradition, even if this upsets people.

+4 - 1 point

10)  Our country will be destroyed someday if we do not smash the perversions eating away at the foundation of our society.

-1 - 3 points

11)  Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different than everyone else.

+4 - 1 point

12)  Good old-fashioned American values still show the best way to live.

-1 - 3 points

13)  You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority's view by protesting for abortion rights, animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.

+2 - 3 points

14)  What the USA needs is a strong, determined leader who will crush the evils that surround us and take us back to our true path.

0 - 5 points

15)  Some of the best people in the country are those who are challenging government, criticizing outdated religious beliefs, and ignoring "the way things are supposed to be done."

+3 - 2 points

16)  God's laws about abortion, pornography, and marriage must be strictly followed before it is too late, and those that break them must be strongly punished.

-3 - 2 points

17)  There are many radical, immoral people in the US today who are trying to ruin it for their own selfish purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action.

18)  A "woman's place" today should be wherever she wants to be.

+4 - 1 point

19)  Our country will be great if we honor the ways of our forefathers, give service to our nation and our leaders, and lock up or banish those that are unpatriotic.

-2  - 2 points

20)  There is no "ONE right way" to live, everyone creates their own way.

+3 - 1 point

21)  Homos and feminazis should be praised for being brave enough to defy tradition.

+1 - 4 points

22)  This country would work a lot better if certain groups of jackasses would just shut their pie holes and accept their place.

[b]-3 - 2 points

Adding up: 59 points. Classic liberal.

Well, on my answer of -4 for everything, that makes me, what... urm...

10+(9*12)=118=Classic Conservative

ROFL...

sorry, when you agree with half a statement, and you have to choice but one answer for the whole question, the whole test is thrown out.

Last edited by comet241 (2007-04-06 09:01:24)

chittydog wrote:

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

The reality is more like being gay or straight, your level of liberalism/conservatism is something you're gentically pre-disposed to being and then certain environmental factors throughout your whole life shift you around.

I'm not going to bother with this "test" as I believe the opening statement is not only completely inaccurate, but totally backwards.

First of all, anyone who believes that sexual orientation is a choice or is the result of environmental factors has never spoken to a gay person. This whole viewpoint is based in ignorance. There is probably a very small percentage of them who choose that lifestyle, but the overwhelming majority will tell you they've known they were gay since birth. In reality, a lot of them don't like being gay. Who would choose to be ostracized from their families, discriminated against at work, be subjected to random beatings by homophobes and be at an extremely high risk for AIDS? Nobody. (Not to mention, who would want to be pounded in the ass anyway?)

So you say I'm wrong and then proceed to completely agree with me....hokay...

Second, how can you be genetically predisposed to be conservative or liberal? The definitions of conservative and liberal differ from region to region and change almost constantly. Political beliefs are totally learned and are absolutely not inherited. There's no gene for opposing big government or supporting welfare. Sometimes this may seem like people are born with these beliefs, but (much like religion) is usually the result of hearing certain views from their families/friends from the time they were infants.

Your susceptibility to authoritarian control is not "subjective" but is actually very quantifyable in the level that we are talking about "groups" of people.  I'm not talking about which monkey on Fox you're worshipping, I could care less, but across societies you will have a certain percentage of people that like to come up with new ideas and go against the grain, and you have a percentage of people that would happily gun down the first group in cold blood...and all levels in between.

Please also note I was talking about liberal/conservative on strictly the authoritarian scale, not the economic scale.  I know, as a conservative, you're used to being able to neatly label things as "you and your group" and "not your group", but really you need to think of this in more than one dimension.  Its left, right, up, down, and in, out.  Complicated, but a whole new subject.

That whole statement smacks of ignorance and I can't give any merit to a survey that begins with such blatant inaccuracies. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to flame you Gorilla. Surely you found this test somewhere and thought it would be useful.

p.s. Isn't there a rule about posting your sources? Surely this test was borrowed from somewhere...

Blatant innacuracies on a test?  Is that like "I can't take this science test because it has the word evolution in it"?  I told everyone that they could just as easy take it on pen and paper and not need to post their results, and the responses I got actually proved part 2.  Liberals will happily post their results without worry about judgement, whereas conservatives will delay or excuse themselves from taking it as it might not make them look good for their friends.  I know there's a lot more authoritarian conservatives hanging on these boards than the libs.

Source for the test is in my sig.  Sorry though that it requires a good 5 hours reading to really grasp the material.  Other things are from a pile of sources I have here, but the one in the sig is probably the best so far.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
Where the test is from...

http://www.chelseagreen.com/images/DTE_Sampler.pdf
Interesting, more about constructive debate between cons and libs than the psychological underpinnings.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
Great work on societal transition from libertarian -> conservative -> authoritarian

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto … 000001.xml
http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthis … ow_up.html
Childhood studies over long term.

Others...
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.120 … ijpr1604_2
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/467716.html

I'll get more in a few...

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-04-06 14:00:02)