DaZeD863
Member
+11|6573
well.. i think you all are approaching the question wrong.. like anything else they would have their advantages and disadvantages... they would be more costly... larger... harder to upkeep than tanks.. but would be able to carry loads tracks and wheels cant effectively...

saying they would slow.. well im sure by the time you see them on the battlefield they will have the whole mech walk run thing down...

and of course they are going to be a larger target.. but honestly... when closing with the enemy why not have them go to all fours or come down onto tracks.. i dont think they would ever replace the infantry man or tanks.. so supporting them would be a must.. but think about the firepower they would bring to the battlefield
APortillo
Member
+21|6535|California, USA

DaZeD863 wrote:

saying they would slow.. well im sure by the time you see them on the battlefield they will have the whole mech walk run thing down...
True, and tanks weren't all that fast when first introduced to the battlefield either.

Last edited by APortillo (2006-11-24 22:44:14)

dead_rac00n
Member
+12|6504|DTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDybfY-300A

Soldiers would die, yes... in laughter
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

DaZeD863 wrote:

well.. i think you all are approaching the question wrong.. like anything else they would have their advantages and disadvantages... they would be more costly... larger... harder to upkeep than tanks.. but would be able to carry loads tracks and wheels cant effectively...
Carry things? Like what?

DaZeD863 wrote:

saying they would slow.. well im sure by the time you see them on the battlefield they will have the whole mech walk run thing down...
something that weighs xx tons isn't going to walk too fast, let alone build up momentum to run...

DaZeD863 wrote:

and of course they are going to be a larger target.. but honestly... when closing with the enemy why not have them go to all fours or come down onto tracks..
Why not just already have the tracks? and four legs would make it slower, heavier AND bigger...

DaZeD863 wrote:

i dont think they would ever replace the infantry man or tanks.. so supporting them would be a must.. but think about the firepower they would bring to the battlefield
or, you could just not have people try to protect something that is meant to be protecting them... and what, exactly, can a walker bring to a fight that cant already be stuck on a Tank/APC...

Last edited by Fenris_GreyClaw (2006-11-24 22:55:36)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6738

dead_rac00n wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDybfY-300A

Soldiers would die, yes... in laughter
Lol that's slow as hell. Might as well make that an Armoured buggy with mini guns.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Blizzard36
Modified Luck Soldier
+10|6558|Grand Forks, ND

Fenris_Greyclaw wrote:

APortillo wrote:

They would probably be more effective at urban warfare than a tank.
Reasons?
Tactical Mobility.

Picture a tank on tank fight just past intersections a few block sapart with both tanks facing each other at the engagement (the defending tank is assumed to have been in a concealed possition otherwise the attacking tank never would have gotten into this deathtrap).  The attacking tank wants to withdraw around the corner so it can call up infantry to deal with the defending tank.

That tank has to first get into reverse gear and start backing up, then while still engaged with the enemy must turn it's hull (presenting his side hull armor to the enemy which is thinner and more easily penatrated than the frontal armor) to back up around the corner - which the driver can't see since it's on the other side of this metal monstrosity and so he has to rely on the commander to tell him when he's clear to turn.  Assuming the defnding tank doesn't breach the side hull armor on the next shot and take them out the commander is allready very distracted spotting for the gunner and screaming in his radio and not of great help to the driver.  Then, the turret takes a hit and the gunner is wounded, the allready overworked commander has to take over the gun controls and can't spot for the driver any more.  Without the extra eyes the driver backs into the building's corner causing a small collapse and trapping the tank.  At this point it's down to which tank can put rounds on target faster and more effectivly than the other, the defending tank usually has the advantage.

Now, picture the same scenario with the assaulting tank replaced my a humanoid mecha.

Upon finding the concealed defending tank the walker simply backs up and then sidesteps around the corner, keeping the best armor towards the enemy at all times.  It then has 3 options.

1.  Do as the tank would have done and call in infantry to deal with the dug in defending tank while trying to cover the probably exits the defending tank would use when pulling out.

2.  If no infantry is available and for whatever reason you don't want to damage the city too much, the mecha races down the streets and is hopefully able to flank the dug in tank before it's able to leave it's posistion and get an easy side hull kill.  (Dug in and concealed tanks generally have a hard time traversing the turret to engage targets on thier sides without first backing out of the defencive position, so I'd give this aproach about even ods of succeeding.)

3.  The most spactacular reason why mecha are king in the city.  Infantry aren't available and you don't care what condition the city is in after the fight.  The mecha simply sidesteps right into, and through the building next to it.  Since it has hands it is able to dig it's way through much more efficiantly than a tank can and if it does happen to get burried, it can dig it's way out quickly as well.  After running through a couple buildings you come out next to the enemy tank before it can bring it's turret to bear.  You scare that crap out of the crew, and then stomp it to goo.

J/K on the stomping thing.  As cool as it is to imagine it would be a bad tactic, though one the tank crew would fear in the pit of thier souls anyway.  Stomping the tank would likely set of the ammo, and that would probably still do damage to the mecha.  You'ld just shoot it from half a block away and ride out the shockwave.

If this fight featured power armor instead of mecha, they would take it into the third demension by climbing the buildings and hopping from roof to roof.  Get to a roof with Line Of Sight on the tank, fire a missile, no more tank.

Last edited by Blizzard36 (2006-11-24 23:02:31)

Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

dead_rac00n wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDybfY-300A

Soldiers would die, yes... in laughter
Lol that's slow as hell. Might as well make that an Armoured buggy with mini guns.
i could take that thing down with a brick...
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6738
What's better then mechs you may think? POWER SUITS FOR TROOPS.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

Blizzard36 wrote:

Fenris_Greyclaw wrote:

APortillo wrote:

They would probably be more effective at urban warfare than a tank.
Reasons?
Tactical Mobility.

Picture a tank on tank fight just past intersections a few block sapart with both tanks facing each other at the engagement (the defending tank is assumed to have been in a concealed possition otherwise the attacking tank never would have gotten into this deathtrap).  The attacking tank wants to withdraw around the corner so it can call up infantry to deal with the defending tank.

That tank has to first get into reverse gear and start backing up, then while still engaged with the enemy must turn it's hull (presenting his side hull armor to the enemy which is thinner and more easily penatrated than the frontal armor) to back up around the corner - which the driver can't see since it's on the other side of this metal monstrosity and so he has to rely on the commander to tell him when he's clear to turn.  Assuming the defnding tank doesn't breach the side hull armor on the next shot and take them out the commander is allready very distracted spotting for the gunner and screaming in his radio and not of great help to the driver.  Then, the turret takes a hit and the gunner is wounded, the allready overworked commander has to take over the gun controls and can't spot for the driver any more.  Without the extra eyes the driver backs into the building's corner causing a small collapse and trapping the tank.  At this point it's down to which tank can put rounds on target faster and more effectivly than the other, the defending tank usually has the advantage.

Now, picture the same scenario with the assaulting tank replaced my a humanoid mecha.

Upon finding the concealed defending tank the walker simply backs up and then sidesteps around the corner, keeping the best armor towards the enemy at all times.  It then has 3 options.

1.  Do as the tank would have done and call in infantry to deal with the dug in defending tank while trying to cover the probably exits the defending tank would use when pulling out.

2.  If no infantry is available and for whatever reason you don't want to damage the city too much, the mecha races down the streets and is hopefully able to flank the dug in tank before it's able to leave it's posistion and get an easy side hull kill.  (Dug in and concealed tanks generally have a hard time traversing the turret to engage targets on thier sides without first backing out of the defencive position, so I'd give this aproach about even ods of succeeding.)

3.  The most spactacular reason why mecha are king in the city.  Infantry aren't available and you don't care what condition the city is in after the fight.  The mecha simply sidesteps right into, and through the building next to it.  Since it has hands it is able to dig it's way through much more efficiantly than a tank can and if it does happen to get burried, it can dig it's way out quickly as well.  After running through a couple buildings you come out next to the enemy tank before it can bring it's turret to bear.  You scare that crap out of the crew, and then stomp it to goo.

J/K on the stomping thing.  As cool as it is to imagine it would be a bad tactic, though one the tank crew would fear in the pit of thier souls anyway.  Stomping the tank would likely set of the ammo, and that would probably still do damage to the mecha.  You'ld just shoot it from half a block away and ride out the shockwave.
Well put together, and i like the reasoning. +1 to you, However;

Blizzard36 wrote:

Fenris_Greyclaw wrote:

APortillo wrote:

They would probably be more effective at urban warfare than a tank.
Reasons?
Since it has hands it is able to dig it's way through much more efficiently than a tank can and if it does happen to get buried, it can dig it's way out quickly as well.
They have hands now?
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

What's better then mechs you may think? POWER SUITS FOR TROOPS.
i thought they scrapped the Dragonskin (Dragnhide? something Dragon-y) Body Armour project?
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6738

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

What's better then mechs you may think? POWER SUITS FOR TROOPS.
i thought they scrapped the Dragonskin (Dragnhide? something Dragon-y) Body Armour project?
I'm making my own in my secret lab.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

What's better then mechs you may think? POWER SUITS FOR TROOPS.
i thought they scrapped the Dragonskin (Dragnhide? something Dragon-y) Body Armour project?
I'm making my own in my secret lab.
I demand to be in.
Blizzard36
Modified Luck Soldier
+10|6558|Grand Forks, ND

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

They have hands now?
I speak of the prototyplical mecha found in most anime and games, not neccisarily the BF2142 walkers.  I myself am most fond of the Battletech universe.  In any case, it's generally assumed to be of roughly humanoid shape and have hands or some sort of actuator arm to move things around with.

The BF2142 walkers would be marginal, I'd see them as the first usable generation of mecha and one of the primary goals of later generations would be the addition of arms of some type.
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6694|Colorado
They would cost too much , stuff we already have can do the same job. I don't think they will ever be built, they sure look kool though.
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

Blizzard36 wrote:

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

They have hands now?
I speak of the prototyplical mecha found in most anime and games, not neccisarily the BF2142 walkers.  I myself am most fond of the Battletech universe.  In any case, it's generally assumed to be of roughly humanoid shape and have hands or some sort of actuator arm to move things around with.

The BF2142 walkers would be marginal, I'd see them as the first usable generation of mecha and one of the primary goals of later generations would be the addition of arms of some type.
I've always been thinking of the MechWarrior style mechs. if you're thinking anime-style, why dont they have jetpacks and fly around? Adding arms to something like that just won't be possible in the next 100 years, nor would we be able to properly co-ordinate them.

take a look at the walker vid that was posted. they ain't gonna get much better than that.

Wow. three pages of stuff in D&ST, and its not a flame war.

Last edited by Fenris_GreyClaw (2006-11-24 23:17:41)

Maj.Do
Member
+85|6773|good old CA
Mechs Pros are they can go over terrains tanks cant.  Problem is they would be expensive and if you could destroy 1 leg, there pretty much immobile (same with tank threads but i think threads would be easier to replace).  Now what would power the mech, its gonna be heavy and burn up alot of gas. 

If mechs could be like the new metal gear in MGS4, gee id be scared to be a soldier.  Now imagine if soldiers had those suits like in crysis....
Blizzard36
Modified Luck Soldier
+10|6558|Grand Forks, ND

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

Blizzard36 wrote:

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

They have hands now?
I speak of the prototyplical mecha found in most anime and games, not neccisarily the BF2142 walkers.  I myself am most fond of the Battletech universe.  In any case, it's generally assumed to be of roughly humanoid shape and have hands or some sort of actuator arm to move things around with.

The BF2142 walkers would be marginal, I'd see them as the first usable generation of mecha and one of the primary goals of later generations would be the addition of arms of some type.
I've always been thinking of the MechWarrior style mechs. if you're thinking anime-style, why dont they have jetpacks and fly around? Adding arms to something like that just won't be possible in the next 100 years, nor would we be able to properly co-ordinate them.

take a look at the walker vid that was posted. they ain't gonna get much better than that.

Wow. three pages of stuff in D&ST, and its not a flame war.
Mechwarrior is part of the Battletech universe.  You are most likely only familiar with the universe since the clans invaded (MW2 and after).  The clans view physical combat in mechs as dishonerable so they don't need hand actuators for punching or holding weapons.  The other main reason you would need them, the smash and grab raid, the clans don't need to do either since the opponent simply hands it over after you win a Trail of Possesion for it.  So clan mechs almost never come with hand actuators.  They also think jumping around the battlefield is dishonerable (you're supposed to stand and fight!) and so most of thier 'mechs don't have jump jets either.  Having to adapt to warfare in the Inner Sphere is changing that though.  Clan units expecting to fight in urban or other rough terrain however, will often add small hands to the 'mechs to help with negotiating the terrain.  While these are shown in some of the artwork they haven't really been shown in the computer games.  Inner Sphere mechs on the other hand almost allways have hands as they do often engage in smash and grab raids or hand to hand combat.
Fenris_GreyClaw
Real Хорошо
+826|6541|Adelaide, South Australia

Blizzard36 wrote:

Mechwarrior is part of the Battletech universe.  You are most likely only familiar with the universe since the clans invaded (MW2 and after).  The clans view physical combat in mechs as dishonerable so they don't need hand actuators for punching or holding weapons.  The other main reason you would need them, the smash and grab raid, the clans don't need to do either since the opponent simply hands it over after you win a Trail of Possesion for it.  So clan mechs almost never come with hand actuators.  They also think jumping around the battlefield is dishonerable (you're supposed to stand and fight!) and so most of thier 'mechs don't have jump jets either.  Having to adapt to warfare in the Inner Sphere is changing that though.  Clan units expecting to fight in urban or other rough terrain however, will often add small hands to the 'mechs to help with negotiating the terrain.  While these are shown in some of the artwork they haven't really been shown in the computer games.  Inner Sphere mechs on the other hand almost allways have hands as they do often engage in smash and grab raids or hand to hand combat.
I only played a MechWarrior 2 demo. i have no idea what was just posted.
Plisken
POE2 Addict For Life
+21|6606|Vic, Australia

Maj.Do wrote:

Mechs Pros are they can go over terrains tanks cant.  Problem is they would be expensive and if you could destroy 1 leg, there pretty much immobile (same with tank threads but i think threads would be easier to replace).  Now what would power the mech, its gonna be heavy and burn up alot of gas. 

If mechs could be like the new metal gear in MGS4, gee id be scared to be a soldier.  Now imagine if soldiers had those suits like in crysis....
The metal gears in MGS4 rock, but only because there is no armour or decent anti-tank weapons to counter it
(except super-raiden )

IF mechs were made and used in the future it would probably be in a infantry support role. It gives the infantry the anti-armour support they need, with having to make a path or clear a road for a tank to come.
Lets get a pro/con list up

Mech's
Pro's: Increased mobility, more armements (rockets/cannons/gattling guns/armour etc), can hit the weaker top of conventional tanks, doesnt need as big on-battlefield crew
Cons: easily disabled (taken out leg), larger target, gas guzzler, hard to produce, extremely advanced computer (hard to make)
*feel free to build on it*
EDIT: Added a heap of stuff

Last edited by Plisken (2006-11-24 23:42:21)

Blizzard36
Modified Luck Soldier
+10|6558|Grand Forks, ND

Fenris_GreyClaw wrote:

Blizzard36 wrote:

Mechwarrior is part of the Battletech universe.  You are most likely only familiar with the universe since the clans invaded (MW2 and after).  The clans view physical combat in mechs as dishonerable so they don't need hand actuators for punching or holding weapons.  The other main reason you would need them, the smash and grab raid, the clans don't need to do either since the opponent simply hands it over after you win a Trail of Possesion for it.  So clan mechs almost never come with hand actuators.  They also think jumping around the battlefield is dishonerable (you're supposed to stand and fight!) and so most of thier 'mechs don't have jump jets either.  Having to adapt to warfare in the Inner Sphere is changing that though.  Clan units expecting to fight in urban or other rough terrain however, will often add small hands to the 'mechs to help with negotiating the terrain.  While these are shown in some of the artwork they haven't really been shown in the computer games.  Inner Sphere mechs on the other hand almost allways have hands as they do often engage in smash and grab raids or hand to hand combat.
I only played a MechWarrior 2 demo. i have no idea what was just posted.
It's ok, you're speaking to a guy who's won Battletech tournements and dedicated about a decade of free time to it.  The only Battletech books that I want to have and don't have were either published before I was 3, or I haven't even been able to confirm were published at all.  I could overload people who are reasonably familiar with the universe.

All you need to know is that in MW2 you play clan units.  Clan units for the most part are elitest pricks who think using hands is for pussies so the mechs in MW2 don't have hands.  The very few that should have come with hands weren't rendered with them since that would have been a lot more work and they wouldn't have been usable with the game technology anyway.  As far as the entire Battletech universe is concerned, hands are pretty common.

Last edited by Blizzard36 (2006-11-24 23:54:02)

Karo6972
Syrup Man
+2|6817
I'd say that humanoid hands would give the mech the greatest advantage over a tank.  If a mech were to have hands, it would hypothetically be able to change out weapons based on situations (i.e. long range rifles, anti-armor weapons, close combat weapons, etc.), as if it were nothing more than a larger than life infantryman.
eagles1106
Member
+269|6605|Marlton, New Jersey.
Depends on the type of mech.  Think about it.

You could have one with a smaller pay load, thinner, sleaker body that can walk faster and have it's top half rotational.

I actually think mechs will be in the future.

Not to mention if the top half was rotational, a Mech that was retreating could still fire it weapons while keeping its strongest armor facing forward while moving backward or moving sideward...

Probably for scout use (what I said about the smaller payload, sleaker body, being faster, etc) and for Anti aircraft use.

Possibly for being the bulk of a frontline force, although this is hard to decide

Last edited by eagles1106 (2006-11-25 00:01:23)

PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6647|Home of the Escalade Herds
If they had our agility with a tanks offense/defense, yes

Honestly, I don't think they'll ever become practical but who knows...
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6696|Canberra, AUS
No. It's simple physics.

The reason bipedal animals (like us) can stand up is because of our centre of gravity - it allows us to keep our balance.

A mechwalker (I assume you mean the 2142 ones) has a centre of gravity somewhere around the head, and if you've ever pushed over one of those little buggies which are very tall for their size you'll see why this is a problem.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
eagles1106
Member
+269|6605|Marlton, New Jersey.

Spark wrote:

No. It's simple physics.

The reason bipedal animals (like us) can stand up is because of our centre of gravity - it allows us to keep our balance.

A mechwalker (I assume you mean the 2142 ones) has a centre of gravity somewhere around the head, and if you've ever pushed over one of those little buggies which are very tall for their size you'll see why this is a problem.
Then make the legs bigger,longer, or heavier....

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