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I have a couple of issues with what people in here are posting. It sounds like many of you are either too young to understand what is going on out there or haven't been hit financially like people have. Yes, there is a segment of people who did the "house flipping" or bought a house they could not afford  but there are many more who are simply struggling even though they did the right thing.  Here is what happened and is happening to me and if you think I would deserve debtor prison...then you are insane to bunch everyone up into a single category simply because they are in debt.

I went through a divorce and child custody battle for 3 years, during that time I sold a house that once had equity of over 100,000. The house I sold (required by divorce) lost most of its equity and I received 700.00 dollars at closing.  I built a new house cheaply and at that time had plenty of income and reserves to pay for almost anything. I have been self employed in the state of Michigan for 15 years. My income 3 years ago was more than enough to pay for the house I had built. The house was built for 165,000. At that time I had very little expenses, large checking and savings and yes a mortgage payment.

Living in the state of Michigan, being an architect and all you have to do is add those 2 things up and you can see what happened to me. The housing market in Michigan tanked. My work went from producing 200 plans a year went to almost nothing overnight and then my ex-wife decided she wanted to move my child to another state so she could be with her new man she met on the net. So i went through a 2 year custody battle (which I won) that cost me 2 years of salary. In my county alone, building permits went from an average of 600+ year down to 20 and I basically lived off what i had in the bank because there was virtually no income. It is the same today. I have been using credit cards to pay my lawyer, to pay my house payment and to just get by. Even though I have always paid on time and had a great credit score, the credit card companies decided to reduce my credit lines down to what I owe, I did not max my cards out, they maxed them out for me and my credit score tanked. Now I am at a situation where I am trying to get the home loan modified to stay in the home.

I feel that I did nothing wrong, I built up credit lines for 22 years, using the cards sparingly and only using them when I needed to when everything tanked. When I did, I was targeted and the domino effect took hold. Did I ever believe that my income would almost disappear, that my ex-wife would take me to court over anything and everything over the last 2 years (I won every case). Did I ever think that I would lose all credit lines I had earned over 22 years. What I find infuriating is that when the banks needed help, our taxpayer money saved their butts, when I needed to finally use the credit lines I had, they were almost instantly removed by these same banks. I want to make this clear. I never abused any credit card. I did not go out and buy things I did not need. I worked and paid my bills, I fought to keep my rights for my daughter and now I almost have no where to turn and some of you think that I would deserve debtor prison????? Not everyone out there is abusing the system....I did everything I was supposed to do but it turned into a disaster in Michigan, my work related to housing and now debts to lawyers and a couple of credit cards. There are real problems happening to real people who used to be able to live a good life, pay their bills and have a nice home without going overboard, but it still caught up to me. Things happen, it will pass but don't lump me into one giant category or blame. It is not that simple.

Pochsy wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I think Gore actually believes in what he was peddling in that movie. Does it make sense from a business standpoint to make money off of it in this way? Absolutely. Is it ethical? About as ethical as a weatherman predicting rain on a sunny day and standing on the street corner selling umbrellas...

That metaphor blew my mind.

Who. Cares. He's got to keep a household 10 times larger than your average American home, too. Guess they don't consider that? Yes he HAS to keep a large household- if former presidents lives in penury the portrait of the country would certainly start to run.

You are way off the mark here. If Al Gore is serious about what he feels then he could easily convert his home into a green home that actually would not cost him or the environment one red cent. There is technology that can turn any home into a power producer instead of an energy drain. Especially with his position and his money, he could easily do it, but he doesnt and that tells me he does not even believe or care about his own agenda unless it is about money.

Anyone with extra cash can build a green home or convert a home to green that literally uses no power from a power company and in fact, in some cases, produce enough of its own power to sell it back to the power companies. There is absolutely no excuse for this man not to be doing it unless he really doesn't care and that is what I believe, he doesnt care and the only thing he is in this for is a fat paycheck.

Simply put, he is a giant hypocrite and this stuff is not about tinfoil hats and crazy talk. He has the options, the ability to follow his own advice and agenda and he fails miserably and is just another money hungry, fear mongering idiot out to fill his own pockets.

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

What I said.

I agree with the general idea of your post, but you seem to be doing exactly what you consider moronic...  the only difference is that you're doing it to Clinton instead of Bush.

I blamed Rice because she had more direct responsibilities with respect to security memos.

Still, if we're comparing attacks under administrations, 9/11 does dwarf all attacks under Clinton.

Actually, part of the point I was trying to make is that you can not look at specific people or blame on person when there is plenty of blame to go around. Our leadership is a mess no matter who runs it and no leadership will ever be able to stop terrorism completely. What I get tired of is certain people who insist on rambling on and on about one specific person, laying all blame on one person and forgetting the people around them (Democrat and Republican alike) and then trying to use a significant event to support that idea.

I used the examples under Clinton and Obama to show that it doesnt matter who is president, it will never matter when we are talking about our democracy and the people who hate it. But to keep harping on one guy, relentlessly is tiresome.

Now, as for Palin, I do agree that she should never hold high office. She may be a smart person but sometimes she is completely oblivious to her surroundings. She has, in the past, been totally unprepared and has been made to look like an idiot far too many times. If she cant handle interviews and actually depends on writing a few words on her hand to help her remember what everyone is already talking about...well then, that is a problem. I know it seems small, but it is a pattern with her. She simply is not a person suited to deal with the rest of the world. I believe she would be a disaster. But if it comes down to Obama or Palin.....God help us!!!!

Turquoise wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Under Bush, we had 9/11 right at the start of his presidency and guess what, the terrorist were ALREADY living here in the US, planning this out months, probably years before Bush even became president. So somehow Bush could stop this? Give me a break. Now, I could be wrong, but America was not attacked again after 9/11 during Bush's watch, I could be wrong but I don't recall any major attacks.

No major successful attacks other than 9/11 occurred during Bush's reign.  However, we probably will never know how many attempts were made.

The tricky part about intelligence work is that most of it is kept under wraps for obvious reasons.  If we told the public about all of the attempts that have been foiled, people would be even more paranoid than they already are.

While it is true that Bush hadn't been in office for very long before 9/11, one key member of his administration dropped the ball big time -- Rice.  She had plenty of forewarnings about what was likely to occur, but she didn't do much to deal with them.

Granted, I'm not blaming Bush for 9/11.  Blaming any president for a terror attack is illogical considering how most of the legwork done to protect national security isn't performed by the president but by intelligence agencies, law enforcement groups, and the Cabinet members connected to them.

So, other than the terrorists themselves, the majority of the blame for 9/11 goes to the lax TSA at Boston Logan Airport and to the FBI, CIA, and NSA not communicating like they should have.

By the same token, blaming Clinton for not getting Bin Laden isn't logical either.

The point of my post was to point out that no matter who is president, we are not going to stop everything, large or small, even with a lot of intelligence. As far as blaming Rice for dropping the ball....did you see the report? I dont believe anyone here in this forum in privy to the reports that were circulating at that time. From what I understand, it was a general threat with no real names or targets associated to the threat.

Even now, I am sure there are threats of this or that happening...but which ones do they pursue, which ones do they take MOST seriously. If anyone is that smart, then we would never have attacks. As far as threats like the one Rice had about planes being used, that is a very old tactic that has been discussed for many years, even as early as the 1970's. It is not a new type of threat and didn't just appear out of nowhere when Bush became president. I wonder where all the warnings about all the stuff happening before Bush became president were. Someone other than Rice didn't drop the ball??????  It was a series of missed intel that wasnt linked together and that happens and will always happen. But to blame Bush is so ignorant on so many levels.

Also, I believe it says a lot about the security we had during the Bush years that we were not SUCCESSFULLY attacked. Don't you think? I think it is pretty telling that about 8 major attacks happened under Clinton and 1 major one under Bush during the same time spans of presidency. Now, in one year under Obama, there have been one major attack and one failed attack. Failed, not because we stopped it, because the device failed itself.

I still stand by my post, to come into this thread and bring up one major attack under the Bush watch and some how connect everything to that, regardless of the history before Bush or after Bush is absolutely moronic. That is what is wrong with our country, always looking to attack the other side, picking and choosing and changing actual history and forgetting that nothing will get done the way this country is run, regardless of Democrats or Republicans. It is sad to see the state of our government but I will not blame one man for everything, that is nonsense.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Did Bush do anything to stop the attack?
Even after being told Bin Laden was planning to hijack aircraft and attack inside the US?
No wait, he did absolutely zip.

Didnt take you long to get back on Bush. How old are you?

Seriously, hijacking planes and the threat of using hijacked planes as flying bombs has been around since the 1970's. Do you really think that it just came out of the blue only when Bush was president and that somehow Bush could have stopped it? There have been hijackings for years and yet I havent seen a president or a leader of a country stop any of them.

Getting thousands of reports on threats and deciding which ones are real and which ones are not can take its toll. Much of the info is very general and rarely specific. Who was president when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building or the Waco siege....oh that is right, Bill Clinton....I wonder why he couldn't have stopped those things. Or how come Clinton wasn't able to stop the US Embassy bombings in  Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya. How come Clinton wasn't able to stop the bombing of the USS Cole. All these happened under Clinton's watch but I guess your blindfolds are still on.

Now, under Obama's watch, we had the Fort Hood shootings(I do not believe this was random at all and there were many warnings about his guy and his contacts) and we had an unsuccessful attempt at blowing up a plane just recently. How come Obama was not able to stop those 2 things.

Under Bush, we had 9/11 right at the start of his presidency and guess what, the terrorist were ALREADY living here in the US, planning this out months, probably years before Bush even became president. So somehow Bush could stop this? Give me a break. Now, I could be wrong, but America was not attacked again after 9/11 during Bush's watch, I could be wrong but I don't recall any major attacks.

My point is this, I don't care if you are Republican or Democrat, terrorists attacks are going to occur and if you think every single one is going to be stopped, that every single threat can be dealt with, that every attempt will be thwarted on time, then you sir are a complete and total moron. Terrorists simply don't like our way of life, they don't care if Obama is president or not...they are still trying and always will during my lifetime.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I think now is not the time to be doing something like healthcare reform, thats Obama's big mistake.

You can't really say the US has had 3 years of democratic rule, in any case the previous 6 years of Republicans would be a big factor.
Unless you want to say the Republicans were really in office for 2 years before Bush and therefore 9/11 wasn't Clinton's responsibility after all .

Basically its Americas shitty electoral system which gives you a two party state and no bi-partisan activity to speak of, and a system which delivered up Sarah Palin as VP candidate in the first place......

The Dems have had 3 years of rule and I can say that in response to your posts here because you are blaming Bush for the problems we have now and for the wars going on, which is stupid and forgetful of the past. What I am saying is that our government as a whole is to blame...not Bush alone, but I do blame more of the problems on the Dems right now because they have had a majority and now run congress and the presidency all on their own and have done nothing except put us more into a hole. When I cant afford something, I tighten my belt and hold on...these guys dont know when to stop and work on the real issues. Forget the utopian crap right now, work on the main problems. Debt and jobs. Screw health care, cap and trade...save that for later when we have something of a foundation first.

Now bringing up 9/11 is a joke. How in the hell can you compare things that are in control of this country right now under the Obama administration (spending, taxes, economy...etc) to a terrorist attack that is random and can and will happen no matter who is president. We have had several attacks recently under the Obama administration. Even though they weren't on the scale of 9/11, they are going to happen regardless of who is president or what party rules at the moment. Comparing something in our control to something that is not is asinine.

I will agree that our system is a mess and we are a two party state that is run very poorly. I do agree that Palin is a joke and guess what the next presidential election could like like. Palin vs. Obama....what has this country come to when those could be our two choices. Holy crap!!!

Dilbert_X wrote:

Has any incoming President had that much to deal with before? Two wars, near economic collapse and ongoing severe terrorist threat?
Obama hasn't failed yet, and he is trying to fix the financial fiasco handed to him by Bush, maybe he's not doing it well but we'll see.
Better wait a bit more than a year though before we start getting excited and calling it.

I'd say antagonising the entire muslim world, attacking a country without a WMD program or links to terrorism and ignoring a country which does have extensive WMD programs and definite extensive links to terrorism could well be a big picture thing.

Clinton did pretty well economically though didn't he?

You do realize that the Democrats were in power 2 years before Obama became president? You do realize that Democratic leaders pushed and pushed for everyone to have a house and severely reduced the rules for home ownership? You do realize that Democrats stood side by side and even pushed for war against Iraq just as much as any Republican or Bush(See Al Gore Speech)? You do realize that Obama and his group have spent more money in one year than all presidents in the past COMBINED? You do realize that Bush inherited quite a few conflicts around the world and in fact, only shortly after his election did 9-11 happen?

To simply blame Bush with a broad stroke is completely ignorant. I see failure in our government on both sides and has for quite awhile. I wonder when you will post ANYTHING that is not anti-american or anti-bush. What I notice about you is that as soon as a story comes out in a negative fashion towards Bush or America...you are the first to find it, post it and promote it.

Obama has become a joke in almost every corner of this country, his policies are extreme and his tunnel vision is clearly taking its toll on him and his government. He cant get anything passed of any significance even with the majority he has and the super majority he had and no one can blame the Republicans for that...the only thing you can blame is stupid policies and unadulterated spending

I honestly wish you would grow up a bit, stop focusing so much on one side and see the big picture. Our government is a mess and because it has too many people like you in it.....blindfolded, single minded, tunnel visioned people who can not look past their hate for the other side. Obama needs to stop blaming and get to the meat of the problem and spending money that wont even be printed until my kids are fully grown is ridiculous on so many levels. To still blame Bush after a year of presidency and 3 years of Democratic government rule is laughable.

By the way, I think Palin is a tool in the harshest way possible. If she continually lets herself look this bad over and over, how in the hell can she be a good president. How many times has she fallen into positions where she is made to look like an idiot. It shows a lack of awareness, a lack of preparation and being very naive. If she runs for president...God help us!

ATG wrote:

This just in over A.M. Radio: North and South Korean armies are shooting at each other.


How many countries have been jacked by our mortgage backed securities?

As a nation, our cupboards are empty and our tables are bare.

Never before has so many numbers of peoples lived in such wide spread poverty and uncertainty.

Because of the above axioms I believe these days are ripe with the smell of slaughter.

There is a shortage in the amount of people dying. Ask the green advisor to GB. Ask Little Barrys environmental advisors. 



Iran.
North Korea.
Nevermindlands Iraq and  Afghanistan.

ATG....lets get a little focused here.

First, if you read the real info about the incident, you would realize that North Korea shot about 30 artillary shells into water off their coasts into an area they warned people to stay out of. Experts believe it is preparation for a launch. In response, South Korea shot about 100 warning shots into the sky. So basically a bunch of birds and fish were killed. No damage to either side and nothing aimed at one another. It is basically the same BS they pull on each other and it will continur.

Mortgage...I am not sure if all countries have mortgages or use the same system. Yes, it is messed up right now..but I wouldnt call it a conspiracy. I call it "a bunch of morons" who thought everyone in America deserved a home and it came back to haunt us. We are not through it yet so we will see.

Our country being poor, well, we have gone down a few pegs and the same people who pushed the mortgage crises on us are still in power. Spending like money grows on trees. I hope in November, things can change a little.

As far as not enough people dying? Well, that has been the case for years and will be. People are living longer and the populations have exploded but again....conspiracy? No, it is nature and nature will take care of itself..good or bad.

ATG....relax, you got one life to live, enjoy it as much as you can and maybe focus on yourself a bit.

Turquoise wrote:

As far as I can tell, Haiti is more than religious enough.  Religion would seem to be the only thing they have a surplus of other than suffering, disease, and death.

That is my point, in a way, Catholism, Christianity in most 3rd world countries are much more dependent on religion that other countries. They take it much more seriously than the "typical" Christian/ Catholic in America.  Their belief systems run much deeper through their societies, through there decision making, through their laws than in America or similar countries. But in the end, they will look to their religion more often than not, even in the worst of times. If it gets them through whatever they are dealing with, good for them. If these bibles help in that way and there will be people who will use them....then so what!

ruisleipa wrote:

to deathbcomesyu -  those bibles probably cost quite a lot to make. If they gave that money or its value i food and shelter they would save more people. Fact.

If they give them to priests and so on, what's the point? Don't you think they know enough about Christianity they need a solar-powered bible?

It's not a gesture of good will, or if it is it is seriously misguided. If I'm sitting next to my home which has been destroyed ('BY 'GOD' if I'm a fundamentalist Christian! Work that one out for me!) and I have no food, no water, no place to live, and someone gave me a fuckin bible, I'd shove it right up their arse. The bible won't save anyone's life. If helping people's not what you're interested in, GTFO. How the hell is reading a bible going to help anyone, when it's full of shit anyway.

And yes it is similar to religious fanatics praying their daughter will get better instead of sending her to a hospital. Same principle. We kno that you need food and stuff, but we're gonna send you some bibles and pray a bit instead. That'll help. Oh, and fuck you Haiti.

Goddamn religious idiots.

The point is that there are probably many less churches, priests, pastors and cathedrals to even go to. There is a group who feels they can help a little and sends these off to give encouragement to those who are seeking it and I am sure there are people who will take these without question. If I owned a company that could do even a little bit, then I would probably do the same regardless of money or not. It won't hurt anyone, especially in a country that accepts the bible and its teachings.

You are looking at it from a point of view of not believing. You would be pissed if something was given to you that wasn't food or water but that is you. I am sure there are people who will accept these without question and who are you to judge those people who would want and listen to these bibles. Comparing these people to fanatics is laughable in my opinion. That is my opinion. I am sure there are people who are asking God "why?" some are asking why it happened, blame God or blame Satan, etc, etc. How do you know that most people there are saying it is an act of God? Have you been there? Have you talked to the victims? How do you know what they are asking for? How do you know they wouldn't appreciate these bibles.

I certainly don't know and if people accept these and use them, but who are we to say that is wrong? Just by your words like the bible "it's full of shit", "it won't help anyone"  "Goddamn religious idiots" it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you are probably an atheist or something close to that but again, who are you to judge people who want to help in their own way and to judge people who will accept them. I personally could care less if they do or not, it is up to them. If they don't want the bibles, don't take them...in the short term there WILL be people who want them. Big wooptie fricken deal!

If you are really that torn up about it, get off the computer and go do something. Go to Haiti, bring food and water and chase the religious "nutters" down the street. I am sure you will get a response you wouldn't think you would get.

cpt.fass1 wrote:

It's the equivalent of the parents who prayed for their daughter to get better instead of taking her to a doctor.

I'm saying it's going to do more harm then good for the people who are sending them. They're using it as an agenda to get conversion. Now imagine you're in haiti with nothing to eat or drink and you get a package from some well to do Christians from the U.S.. You open it up hoping for much needed supplies to survive your journey and it's a plastic bible with a solar panel on it.. What would you do?

This is just a kind jab, don't take offense..
If my house is ever on fire, please sit at home and pray don't come and help.

How are they converting people when they are already that religion???... And who said that because they send these audio bibles that everyone is going to stop rescuing, stop feeding people, etc, etc. How does this compare to religious fanatics praying instead of taking their child to a doctor.

Also, how do you know that these packages will unknowingly going to go to a random person hoping to open the package and find these bibles instead of food. I highly doubt that they are just going to send these out randomly, hand them out randomly. They will probably seek out leaders, priests, pastors etc. to give these too. Its not like they are handing out hundreds of thousands of these...we are talking a handful in the grand scheme of things.

You are taking this way, way too seriously and putting this in fringe where it doesn't belong. Also, just because I believe that this is no big deal and won't hurt anyone, doesn't mean that I sit at home and pray every time something goes wrong. That I ignore science or medical or whatever. Just because a few hundred audio bibles make there way to a disaster zone within a Catholic/Christian country doesn't make everyone a fanatic or make everyone just stand still and pray that the crushed building will heal itself. Seriously, it is a gesture of good will to people who WILL use them.

As far as someone saying that all this is is a play to promote their bible for sale. Well, they aren't making any money on all these bibles they are sending. Do you think the US government is helping because it helps politically? I would say yes, we didn't give a damn before, now we do and so do many other countries but it takes a disaster to get some help...where was it a year ago. Anyhow, relax, no one is going to go bible crazy, depending strictly on prayer to save them, it doesn't even compare.

cpt.fass1 wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

From what I understand, 80% of Haiti is Catholic/ Christian and raised in that. So I am sure that many people will appreciate receiving something that supports their beliefs and uplifts them in some way. Remember, there probably aren't too many churches or cathedrals left or safe enough to go to.

What is wrong with somebody donating these. It isnt just about food or water. It is also about the spirit of the people, their belief system and morality. Maybe somebody listening will choose not to loot or rob and instead help. If it helps reinforce morals and helps people in their time of need...more power to them. I don't care if you believe in God or not, most Haitians do and this will do no harm.

Also, these bibles are similar to watching or listening to TV, if they don't want to listen, they can walk away. This is not being forced on them. It only provides a voice to people who want to hear. I am sure most of them will appreciate it and it is not costing anyone a dime to do so. I see no big deal simply because most people that live in Haiti are of that belief and probably appreciate any effort for their physical and mental well being.

You're right it isn't just about food and water, Medicine is up there on that list as well.  If your basement was wrecked I wouldn't bring you shingles.


If 80% of them are already in the religion I can see this actually causing more harm then good.

How could it do more harm than good? Why does there have to be a measure of how good or bad it is. It is something that can be helpful to people who actually believe in what the bible is and most of that country does. I doubt anyone will complain about a few hundred audio bibles that people will sit and listen to.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to listen to this, anyone can walk past or away and it isnt costing anyone money. Again, it isnt only about physical, medical help, I am sure some want spiritual help as well and there is nothing wrong with offering that.

Here in Michigan, there is a Hispanic only softball league. That is right, you can not join unless you are hispanic. Don't seem to hear too much about that and its has been around for a long time.

I think Obama is a joke. He has done nothing he promised he would do. There is NO transparency...where are the Cspan debates, where is the promise that the people would have a chance to read and see these bills. He is doing nothing that separates him from any other idiot politician. He is a typical politician. Say and promise anything to get elected and then follow the party line once in office.

It is funny how memories are so short in here. Look at what he has done in less than a year. He has spent more money in one year than ALL previous presidents combined. He has used special interests groups as much as anyone or more. He has coddled to big money, banks, oil, etc. He deals behind closed doors and ear marks, that he said he wouldn't allow any more, number in the thousands. He promised to bring home the soldiers and yet we are expanding into Afghanistan and spending is increasing when it comes to the wars.

And what is with all these stupid unelected czars that permeate this government. I dont see myself as republican or democrat, I just wish people would get into this government, do what they say and work for us! Our government is out of control, more than ever and feels like it can do whatever it wants, when it wants regardless of what people want or think. Massachusetts may open their eyes, but I doubt it.

From what I understand, 80% of Haiti is Catholic/ Christian and raised in that. So I am sure that many people will appreciate receiving something that supports their beliefs and uplifts them in some way. Remember, there probably aren't too many churches or cathedrals left or safe enough to go to.

What is wrong with somebody donating these. It isnt just about food or water. It is also about the spirit of the people, their belief system and morality. Maybe somebody listening will choose not to loot or rob and instead help. If it helps reinforce morals and helps people in their time of need...more power to them. I don't care if you believe in God or not, most Haitians do and this will do no harm.

Also, these bibles are similar to watching or listening to TV, if they don't want to listen, they can walk away. This is not being forced on them. It only provides a voice to people who want to hear. I am sure most of them will appreciate it and it is not costing anyone a dime to do so. I see no big deal simply because most people that live in Haiti are of that belief and probably appreciate any effort for their physical and mental well being.

S.Lythberg wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

{real science here}

To the families and victims of 9-11, maybe some day you can rest in peace....because they know the truth, there is nothing more truthful than death.

for the sake of length, i have edited, but it's good to see someone with background making an argument.

However, no amount of pictures of charred plane wheels, jet engine parts, known behavior of construction grade steel at 500 degrees after plastic deformation, or simple physics will convince conspiracy theorists that they aren't super cool and smarter than everyone.

These are the same people who believe the moon landing was faked, even if you hand them a moon rock

These are the same people who think that area 51 is anything other than an experimental aircraft testing ground

No amount of evidence will persuade them, it's best to just ignore them and get on with your life

Very, very true. It is why I don't post that much in here. Lately, almost all active threads in these forums becomes a "lowing" bashing thread and flies away from the main topic faster than anyone can say anything truly relevant.

Once in awhile, I'll post if I feel passionate enough about it. When I saw this thread creeping towards some really ridiculous info. I put up what I knew and hopefully some other people can put it to rest and get on with their lives as well.

oug wrote:

You know what, after 9/11 this word 'conspiracy' has become demonized. The sad truth is conspiracies happen every day by those in power, and just because a goddamn film said some shit about the towers being demolished we now choose to ignore everything that might be labeled as a conspiracy and that's the biggest mistake imho.
Now if you want to talk about 9/11 in particular, it would be a big mistake to focus on how the towers fell. I don't give a rat's ass how they fell. I care about why. I care about what happened afterwards. What got legitimized and what got outlawed. If your answer to the 'why' is "for no other reason than we are America" then I'm afraid you are deeply ignorant. In order to see why, you have to start thinking beyond your understandable affiliation for your own country, you have to distance yourself and examine facts from many sources with an unbiased attitude.

As for your civil liberties, you have to understand that all forms of government in the current context share more or less the same goals. It's a mistake to differentiate between Republicans and Democrats in these matters. The interests that pull the strings behind both these political parties are the same.

I am not sure if this was addressed to me or not, but I will respond to it. I am not sure where you are from, but I am assuming that when you say "your country" then you do not live in the United States.  I have heard all the reasons as to why the towers were attacked, beyond conspiracies of course. The problem is that there is so much ignorance and much of it started on that day and CONTINUES even to this day. The "truth" movement is bigger than ever and now we hear even more ridiculous stuff that never even occurred and I have no idea where this stuff is created. You cant simply ignore or forget such an event and it saddens me that people continue to drag that day through the mud for profit and fame, etc.

Now, As far as differentiating between Republicans and Democrats....I never said anything about the differences and I do not favor one or the other. To me they are equally disgusting at this point and it is too bad that our government is in the state its in. This government, the one before and probably the next and basically since Bush Sr. are the height of hypocrisy. They will say, do and spend whatever they want regardless if this country agrees or not. These guys care more about the next election or who has power more than the other and all you have to do is look at how they are acting over the health care bill.

You don't live in this country. I live in one of the hardest hit areas in the United States...Michigan. I live in the capital and the car plants here are ghost towns. Everyone I know and care for is being affected and I myself have seen what our own state government has done to this State. It is moronic. As far as my "sources"..my sources are my life experiences. I just turned 40, I have owned and run my own business since 1995 and pay for my own insurance, taxes, etc, etc, etc. I don't need wiki quotes, I don't need fox or msnbc stories or anyone to tell me what the hell is going on.

We live under a corrupt government and nothing has CHANGED as promised. We continue to travel down an ugly road but in the end. I will not sit here and let conspiracy nut balls spewing ridiculous statements and do nothing. I am in a position to educate about this event and I am responding appropriately to the OP. I am not stupid enough not to notice the consequences since then, before then and am not stupid enough to depend on "news" sources for what I believe in. But again, I will not sit here and let stupidity reign, even in these forums about such an important event. Whether we like it or not, it was and always will be an important day and that day should not be dragged through the mud over and over.

AussieReaper wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

We are giving money we don't have to big business...would it have been worse to give it to the consumers to actually spend it?? Maybe someone here could tell me what the difference is between big business "spending" (rather hording it) and consumers spending that same money.

Here out Government gave a stimulus package to middle to lower income earners and the GDP result was so good another round of stimulus was handed out shortly after. We only saw one period of negative growth, didn't even make it into technical recession.

I agree with you, some stimulus to the consumer would have helped greatly, not only does it give the poor, out of job, etc a boost, but they then spend that money on the businesses that are struggling.

Now that the big businesses are recording some profits they should really fund the govts. next stimulus to the people.

Well...i just do not get why we are doing what we are doing and then now we are tacking on another 1.2 trillion dollars in a health care bill, not to mention all the money spent fighting over this stuff, and the numbers just keep growing and growing and growing. It just boggles my mind the total care free attitude and free spending these idiots are doing. I wish I could spend like a mad man with no regard.

What do normal people do when they dont have money to spend..they cut back, the find ways to save and control spending....yet, our government simply spends more and more and more. One other thing, the government did pass something to do with giving senior citizens 250 dollars to "help" them,....honestly, that was a slap in the face when you consider the money they have handed out over this last year. How much did that help any senior citizen? Seriously?

Again, I am in no way an economic major but none of this makes any sense to me.

"President Barack Obama called the new jobs report another illustration of why much more work is needed to spur business creation and consumer spending"

How about stop giving to every big company with its hand out and let the consumers spend that money??? I am not big in economics but how does giving a trillion and a half dollars to big banks helping anyone when the banks don't loan, raise interest rates to astronomical levels and prop up their own books.....wouldn't it have been better to let the consumers spend it....after all it would have gone right back to the banks anyway through house, car and credit card payments and savings/ checking accounts would be bulged a bit. I guess it just doesn't make sense to me.

Obama wants to spur business creation and consumer spending...then let us spend the damn money.

We are giving money we don't have to big business...would it have been worse to give it to the consumers to actually spend it?? Maybe someone here could tell me what the difference is between big business "spending" (rather hording it) and consumers spending that same money.

oug wrote:

DeathBecomesYu, you're missing the point. The kid thinks his country fights wars for freedom. For fucks sake that's the kind of rhetoric you find in Rambo movies. This isn't about whether it was a demolition or not. It's about how the US government has used that attack, how it has capitalized on it. It's about how you are now agreeing - as a society - to give up your civil liberties and how you are apathetic towards the lives that have been lost in the aftermath of the attack.

I understand your point but this post was leading towards conspiracies again and that just ticks me off because of the utter ignorance. Yes, most wars come out of greed....tell me what wars don't start that way? Its either about land, or money, or power or whatever equals that greed. I do believe that America, as with some other countries have fought wars for much more noble reasons. As far as Iraq, time will tell a little more as it goes on...but I find it funny that even when the presidents change...the beat goes on.

Now, as far as society losing liberties.....what reasons do we have now? Our government has done nothing to turn the tide...in fact is leaning more towards taking even more away and I don't see war as an excuse. I see health care and the environment as the tools for that currently. Now, I do agree with the OP that there are some really ignorant people that make him pull his hair out over 9-11. I didn't see any of those people quoting truth. When people are spewing utter nonsense like "planes landed, let the people out and the pilots rammed the towers"....to be honest, that is pretty demented thinking. Like it or not...terrorists attacked us that day, for no other reason than we are America...even though many people from all religions and most countries died that day.

To be honest, I just wish we would help our own sometimes if it is all about money, greed and power. Lord knows we need more help in this country than giving it to many others. But again, if we did, America would be yelled at, we are always in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. The OP is correct in defending against stupid, ridiculous conspiracy theories and he has that right. He talks about freedom, the war did have aspects for freedom for many people in that country and they would tell you that too. Yes there were other political reasons as well. Pick your poison....but please leave the conspiracy BS alone when you are defending the other side. That is asinine. People need to use their brains better than going the easy way out with conspiracies.

I have lived and worked in the construction industry as an Architect/ Designer for 22 years. This stuff is laughable when people believe that these buildings were taken down by "controlled" demolition.... it is literally impossible for this to happen.

Quick, what is the tallest building ever demolished by controlled demolition???? Buzzzzzzzz....wrong. Anyway, the tallest building ever demolished by a controlled demolition was a 26 story building in Detroit. Let's say that again. The all time RECORD is 26 stories. So people actually believe that, in one day, our all-knowing, flawless government took down 3 buildings that were 110, 110 and 47 stories high? Without anyone noticing anything? By the way, it takes months to prepare for even buildings the size of 20 stories. What would it take for a building of 110 stories.

People here really need to do some real research with real demolition companies to see how ridiculous these theories are. I have been involved in demolitions and it is quite a task and there is absolutely no way this could have been done secretly and impossible for the buildings to fall as they did with true demolitions. I cant go into details here...or I would write a novel here, But to make a few more points.

1) Demolitions on tall buildings always start from the EXPOSED LEVELS at the bottom and go up. Charges are from bottom to top to control the fall of the building. By the way, if you wanted to destroy buildings, why in the hell care about a controlled demo, just blow it up, let it fall where it may and cause even more destruction. the controlled demo theory is absolute nonsense.

2) Again, 26 stories is the record for height in a controlled demo. The tallest building demoed by other means is around 40 plus stories.

3) I had several friends who lived and worked in New York as police and security firm members. I have seen the pictures they took that day and there is absolute proof that jets hit those buildings. There are pictures of jet parts, jet exterior skin and motor pieces on the ground. These guys witnessed the second plane first hand and one of them was called to work clean up at the pentagon, where again, the inside of the building was full of airline pieces (airline seats, plane parts, etc, etc.) People can view the pictures of the inside of the pentagon, they have been posted all over then net. There is no question in these men's minds that these were all civilian jets.

4) If anyone cares to know, these buildings came down like they should have. What else would you expect? The buildings to fall UP?. Of course they came down and the way they were built helped in the way they fell. All buildings are built basically the same way. Just look at your own house or dorm or wherever you are. Each floor is designed to hold and support that floor ONLY. Each floor only holds its own live and dead load. The first story is NOT built to support the weight of other floors above it. The only part of a building built to support the total weight above is the foundation.

Now, when one floor collapsed at the trade center, then the floor it collapsed onto was now holding two floors, which it was never intended to do and that was all that was needed for a total failure. Fire WEAKENS components of floors, trusses even fasteners and it is totally plausible for fire to be a major factor. NOTHING had to melt, only weaken and when you add the physical damage to even ONE floor, it didnt take much to finish the job.

Why do I waste my breath on this. Because of the total ignorance I see in these threads regarding how things occur in the real world, how demolitions are actually done and what it takes for even small buildings to be demolished. Get educated in Architecture or go talk with a real demo expert before believing some stupid video (loose change) that actually started as a video spoof project before they realized they could make some money from gullible people. Those guys are laughing all the way to the bank.

Anyway, 22 years of experience in this field of study, working with engineers, civilian engineers, demo crews, builders, developers and other architects and I have yet to meet anyone who believes anything other than what actually happened....highjacked planes hitting towers that fell from the damage of the strikes and subsequent damage from the falling debree. It didn't take geniuses to do this, it didn't take a huge, giant sweeping conspiracy to do this. It took a handfull of determined terrorists to do it and even the groups blamed for this acknowledge that they did it.

To the families and victims of 9-11, maybe some day you can rest in peace....because they know the truth, there is nothing more truthful than death.

burnzz wrote:

i'm glad they got Polanski, i really am. when they gonna get Bin Laden?

Maybe offer Bin Laden an award to be received in Switzerland or France...then boom, we got him.

jsnipy wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

So going by the logic of some people in this thread.....we might as well not do anything to the priests who have caused harm to children either...afterall, they have done years of good work, far better than making movies.  Sound good?

the difference is that victim (who now has a family and kids) does not want to relive this.

I understand that she doesn't, but does that give him the right to just walk away. That wasn't my point, my point was that some people in here were basically stating that because he made good movies, the public should give him a break...which is ridiculous.

I know that this situation is a little different because of the victim and what she wants, but it still doesn't change the crime and the appropriate punishment. As I said, because someone has done something good, doesn't mean that he or she should avoid punishment, even years later.

The next time I go out, I'm going to help a little old lady across the street and then rob the next bank I see and then help her back across the street. I am sure I will be forgiven for doing a such good deed before and after.

So going by the logic of some people in this thread.....we might as well not do anything to the priests who have caused harm to children either...afterall, they have done years of good work, far better than making movies.  Sound good?

ISortGlass wrote:

Here is a more organized assortment of his lectures. Watch each video in chronological order 1 through 5. Also watch his interview by project camelot. He say's that the swine flu is a lab-created biological weapon made by the NWO/Illuminati/devil worshiping cabal, to be a pretext to enact martial law REX-84, pass unconstitutional laws, destroy freedoms, force everyone into these FEMA concentration camps, forcibly vaccinate everyone with a "slow kill" flu shot. As a means of getting rid of 90% of the world's population to make it easier to set up a fascist world-government. Go google about pharmaceutical giant "Baxter" was caught sending out seasonal flu vaccines which were contaminated with the LIVE H5N1 "bird flu" virus to several different countries. Only a few weeks before the swine flu outbreak was reported in Mexico city.

Some lab technicians in Czechoslovakia discovered that these vaccines were contaminated after they injected ferrets with them, and the ferrets unexpectedly died.

The fatality rate of the swine flu is about 1%. The fatality rate of the bird flu is 60%. If those vaccines would have gone unnoticed, Hundreds of Millions/Billions of people would be dead by now. Considering the timing of these events, they cannot simply be a coincidence.

Google the Georgia guide stones too.

This guy is a total insane nutjob and is a modern day "snake oil" salesman. You do realize that the websites he is quoting are for products he is selling to "help" you protect your health and future health from the evil space aliens.

I find it hilarious that somehow this guy has been to ALL the super secret facilities and people in these facilities "tell" him everything and they hand over top secret documents..etc, etc. From what he says, he has been involved with almost every conspiracy and mystery ever known to the world and he has seen it all. LOLOL

You talk about the swine flu, etc. But did you hear what he really said. He actually believes in Atlantis and talks about the Great war between Atlantians and Lemurian(sp?) and the talks about geo-political and social positions of these mythical societies.....huh...what...I had no idea that there are history books on this. He also talks about a great galactic war and that Earth is the leader of the galactic group ready to do battle with silicon based life forms. LOLOLOL

By the way, many times in his lecture, he said that all this stuff was going to happen by 2007, he said that half of the world population would be wiped out no later than 2008. He said that one city in the U.S. would be nuked by our own government within a year and claimed that we would also nuke Iran in 2007 to start a new world war. Well, its almost 2010........I guess he didn't know as much as he thought....or maybe he was scaring brainwashed people to buy his cures to get ready for all that.

I watched a lot of this but it got really repetitive and scripted and it was obviously focused to people who want to believe in anything they hear from someone who has nothing but words and "photographic" memory to back it up with. Again, he is doing all this BS to sell his "cures" on his websites...nothing more.

The breakdown of his lectures is this: A total wack job and simply a charlatan out for the money.

Macbeth wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I don't see why people are going goo-goo over Clinton...this was a photo op for both Clinton and Kim. If anyone thinks that Clinton magically went over there and in one day solved this is a moron. This was set up, a done deal before he even got there. This was nothing more than publicity when the dems needed some.

Don't get me wrong....I am glad that these two woman are home but politicians are politicians and if this was the Republicans...the same thing would have happened. Clinton did NOTHING.......except take some nice pics for the media.

If it was Republicans we either would have been to war or they would have sent them a care cup, empty of course.

You missed my point....politics as usual...this had nothing to do with Bill Clinton, he did nothing but show up and be the photo op for the dems. Repubs act the same way when possible. I find it funny that people on here think that Clinton really did do something here and are congratulating him. All I care is that these two women are home....regardless, but of course it has to turn into this nonsense for Clinton.

I don't see why people are going goo-goo over Clinton...this was a photo op for both Clinton and Kim. If anyone thinks that Clinton magically went over there and in one day solved this is a moron. This was set up, a done deal before he even got there. This was nothing more than publicity when the dems needed some.

Don't get me wrong....I am glad that these two woman are home but politicians are politicians and if this was the Republicans...the same thing would have happened. Clinton did NOTHING.......except take some nice pics for the media.

Macbeth wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I'm still wondering where you guys were when the Patriot Act passed.

Pretty sure the Patriot Act did nothing like say "turn in any e-mails that you get that question our policy".

Unless I missed something in the training I received after the law was passed.

I guess you are right sending in an email and having a server send out an automated response to counter point the email sent in is much worse then wiretapping somebody.

How do you know that is all they are planning to do with information sent to them. Who said that it would be an automated response and only an automated response. I think that the government asking for people "tattle" on other is utter ridiculous and really shows how far some of these people are willing to go.

Wouldn't it have been smarter to tell the same people to simply defend them in their own words and their own debate...why in the hell does the government need to know shit about who sent or said anything against Obama. Might as well go to the town hall meetings and start taking pictures...probably wouldn't put it past them to do that at this point.

Politics in this country is so far over the top that it is just astonishing. The corruptness, the power grabs, the gifts, the misuse of OUR money is beyond any sensibility. This government is a two party country with one party now holding all the marbles and doing what they hell they want regardless if anyone read anything or not........oops.....someone might report my message here. Is that how far down we have come?

I have been self employed for almost 15 years now and have always paid my own health insurance. I pay about 600 dollars per quarter for basic insurance and a mid range deductible. My insurance covers emergency room, hospitalization, testing...etc. but does not cover office visits, dental or vision. It is part of a self employed association and there are tons of discounts for other things and so far it has been great for prescription discounts and I can keep and choose the doctors I want. Would I be able to keep this? From what I have read...probably not.

I am not familiar with the details of Obama's plan but I feel it is way overboard from what I have read thus far. Why not just focus on people who can't or don't have insurance. Maybe offer insurance with with a lower rate to people who can't get insurance because of pre-existing conditions or are deemed uninsurable by the big companies. Focus on them and leave the people and employers to what they have and leave us to our choices. If we opt into government sponsored insurance, leave that up to us!!

I don't understand why they want to cover EVERYONE......don't try to fix what isn't broken...maybe its not perfect but we have tons of choices. I just don't get the this huge ambition. Why not wait a little to see if the money we have thrown everywhere works first. It just seems Obama is spending as much as he can, as fast as he can and doesn't want to wait or see how things are going at this point...SLOW DOWN!! When the dust settles a little bit, then focus on health care and focus on the people who need to be focused on, leave the rest alone.

Braddock wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I'll answer number 4 again......Michael Jackson. I believe that is the main reason no one heard much about this and about anything really important for that matter.

That is an entirely plausible reason... but it doesn't make it right. What has happened to us as a society where we can lose focus on truly important social issues in favour of the lives of celebrities we don't even know? Even beyond this case, which only involved one couple, take the example of the Iranian protests which involved thousands... that vanished into thin air when Jacko bit the bullet.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

As far as the rest of the stuff. Call it bad security, complacent attitudes about protection and rules and idiots not ready for this type of scenario. Hopefully someone will learn something and not let this situation happen again. Then again, there is a ton of stupidity in this world and I am sure this will not be the last act of ignorance we will hear or not hear about.

I worked security in the Irish supreme court for a while and it was complete bullshit. We searched bags on the way in with an X-ray but we never turned on the metal detectors for people walking through the door - you could have got a shotgun into the courtroom as long as it wasn't in your bag! We were taking scissors and nail files off people when they showed up on the bag X-ray but all the time I was thinking "he could have a fucking machete in his jacket".

Yes, I also believe it isn't right and shows how twisted our society is when a celebrity with a dubious past takes over the media and drags the internet to a crawl. That is insane and I stated how it took away from the really important issues going on in this world in the other thread you started about this topic. Regardless, the western media is so screwed up because it can't wait to be the first to report, it flaunts negativity and exploits people whenever it can. It is very difficult to even to watch the news or read it because now most organizations are very biased and it gets tiresome hearing nothing but negativity and news that is false because they are too quick to get the facts. Media Sucks!!

I have been in court recently (not for me) but in our court, you have to put everything into the x-ray machines and you are not allowed anything unless you pass through detection machines and your stuff goes through detection machines. It is very simple so I just dont get how something like this could occur and to be honest, 18 stabs tells me that they stood back and tried to shoot the guy instead of getting on him to stop him. I dont know but it sounds very strange to me.

I'll answer number 4 again......Michael Jackson. I believe that is the main reason no one heard much about this and about anything really important for that matter.

As far as the rest of the stuff. Call it bad security, complacent attitudes about protection and rules and idiots not ready for this type of scenario. Hopefully someone will learn something and not let this situation happen again. Then again, there is a ton of stupidity in this world and I am sure this will not be the last act of ignorance we will hear or not hear about.

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

ahhh yes, another personal attack.  no Brad, that doesnt distract from the story.  you are correct.  lol wow.

usmarine wrote:

nope.  try and start not being such an asshole about it and maybe i will read further.

usmarine wrote:

oh jeez here is my shadow.

NOTE TO MODS: Surely this counts as spamming? He is refusing to discuss the topic and appears intent on derailing the thread with inane one-liners. can someone clean this up a little?

I would have had more respect for the topic if it wasn't laced with the "unfairness" you claim in these forums. Since I have been a part of these forums, I have seen more evil U.S. and evil Israel threads than any thing remotely bashing Islam. There are a few guys here that attack the muslim religion but just as many attack christianity/religion as a whole and more posts than any other attacking the US and Israel.

I actually don't agree with you about the western media not covering this story because she was Muslim. The fact is that the media focuses on sensationalism and we had the biggest sensational story in the death of MJ. MJ single handedly took every press away from very, very important news that was going on in Iran and China and even the major issues facing our country right now. I would say that had more to do with this story being buried than any other reason. The western media is a twisted mess and the there is no better example of what got buried behind the MJ fiasco.

burni$te wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Did you hear? Oscar Mayer just died.

so fucking wat?

Take a moment and read the rest of the post....maybe then you will know!

Did you hear? Oscar Mayer just died.........

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31806348/ns … ?GT1=43001

I guess the news of Michael Jackson's death was too much. Oscar lost the biggest buyer of little wienies......

sorry couldn't resist, I know there is a joke thread but I had to try to lighten this thread up.

I have no idea if MJ is guilty or not. I have read that the pay off to "quiet" his accuser was actually a decision he had no control over. The insurance provider went ahead and cut its losses at the objection of MJ. LaToya Jackson also accused him of improper conduct but later recanted but again it is two stories in one. Anyhow, I have heard both sides of that pay off issue. Nobody really knows what really happened except for MJ himself and the kids who were around him...but now, one voice will never be heard from again. I don't know, nobody really does.

He is guilty of being a nut job though. His behavior was far from the norm and his statements dug him a bigger hole over and over. I am sorry, I am a father of a 5 year old daughter and can't imagine her sleeping with an adult man that is not family or even family for that matter. I blame both the parents that allowed it and MJ for taking advantage of that. It is NEVER okay to sleep with children unrelated to you sexually or not. That is where MJ was a complete idiot.

As far as the media and all these people wanting to honor MJ. I think it is a joke. Where were all these people when this guy was feeding himself these drugs. Where were these people when he was down and basically hiding in other countries. I find many of these people at the memorial to be total hypocrites and made me wonder how MJ was allowed to fall as he did. I am sure some of his family tried, maybe some of the celebs but Mariah...BS, Usher...BS...kid from Britain's got talent...BS.

I was listening to the radio as well the day of the memorial and someone interviewed someone outside Staples center..guess what he was doing there. Selling T-shirts, buttons, black soap, posters...etc and said that he had made a ton of money that day. Yeah, he really, really cared about MJ. I am sure if he was selling that on the street a month ago, he wouldn't have made a dime. Anyhow, the leaches came out, the celeb leaches, the family leaches (Daddy Joe Jackson and his blue ray venture) and the public leaches and their fake sorrow. Some of these people are crazier than MJ

Anyhow, MJ guilty? Nobody truly knows except for a few (court decisions or not) and we have proof that society is just as wacko. I would have loved to see this same reaction, the same passion, the same desire to gather and show their concern to the people of Iran, the soldiers that die in Afghanistan, the kids that today have gone missing around the world. oh...no....its MJ and that is more important?

I have no idea if MJ is guilty or not. I have read that the pay off to "quiet" his accuser was actually a decision he had no control over. The insurance provider went ahead and cut its losses at the objection of MJ. LaToya Jackson also accused him of improper conduct but later recanted but again it is two stories in one. Anyhow, I have heard both sides of that pay off issue. Nobody really knows what really happened except for MJ himself and the kids who were around him...but now, one voice will never be heard from again. I don't know, nobody really does.

He is guilty of being a nut job though. His behavior was far from the norm and his statements dug him a bigger hole over and over. I am sorry, I am a father of a 5 year old daughter and can't imagine her sleeping with an adult man that is not family or even family for that matter. I blame both the parents that allowed it and MJ for taking advantage of that. It is NEVER okay to sleep with children unrelated to you sexually or not. That is where MJ was a complete idiot.

As far as the media and all these people wanting to honor MJ. I think it is a joke. Where were all these people when this guy was feeding himself these drugs. Where were these people when he was down and basically hiding in other countries. I find many of these people at the memorial to be total hypocrites and made me wonder how MJ was allowed to fall as he did. I am sure some of his family tried, maybe some of the celebs but Mariah...BS, Usher...BS...kid from Britain's got talent...BS.

I was listening to the radio as well the day of the memorial and someone interviewed someone outside Staples center..guess what he was doing there. Selling T-shirts, buttons, black soap, posters...etc and said that he had made a ton of money that day. Yeah, he really, really cared about MJ. I am sure if he was selling that on the street a month ago, he wouldn't have made a dime. Anyhow, the leaches came out, the celeb leaches, the family leaches (Daddy Joe Jackson and his blue ray venture) and the public leaches and their fake sorrow. Some of these people are crazier than MJ

Anyhow, MJ guilty? Nobody truly knows except for a few (court decisions or not) and we have proof that society is just as wacko. I would have loved to see this same reaction, the same passion, the same desire to gather and show their concern to the people of Iran, the soldiers that die in Afghanistan, the kids that today have gone missing around the world. oh...no....its MJ and that is more important?

Winston_Churchill wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

I know that it can be said about almost anything taken in excess, maybe it should be treated like alcohol. Legal to use but don't drive under the influence or have it exposed publicly or laws similar to alcohol. I have seen people mess up their lives with alcohol, with pot, with prescription drugs, with adultery, with video game addiction, so I understand both sides of the argument.

The biggest problem I have with that is that you can drink alcohol in the same room as me without affecting me, but if you smoke it does.  My residence at university this year reeked of weed the entire year and I hated it.  I really see no point in making it legal.

Look at my next paragraph after the one quoted above....I totally agree with you. Some people in here claim if it is done in the privacy, behind their own doors that it is their business. I agree to a point, but if you have family then you do affect much more than yourself. I was lucky that I didn't have college room mates like yours. I'm on the fence on making it legal or not. Personally, I am against it but I can see both sides. Personally it has done so much damage to people I personally know that I would not make it legal but I am not in a position to do much about it except warn others of what could happen.

I have seen people mess there lives up from pot.  My sister and her husband for example. My sister's lungs collapsed and she didn't smoke cigarettes so I believe that pot smoking can affect the body in harmful ways. Both my nieces born of my sister had birth defects and birth defects do not run in our family. She smoked full time during both her pregnancies. I believe it was a major factor in those birth defects.  I also saw how careless they became over the years in their use and there attitudes. It eventually ended up helping ruin their marriage because one (my sister) wanted to get clean and sober and he didn't. He chose to continue and that ended up one of the factors that ended the marriage.

I know that it can be said about almost anything taken in excess, maybe it should be treated like alcohol. Legal to use but don't drive under the influence or have it exposed publicly or laws similar to alcohol. I have seen people mess up their lives with alcohol, with pot, with prescription drugs, with adultery, with video game addiction, so I understand both sides of the argument.

I will say that people who claim that pot is not harmful or that it is okay as long as you are at home miss some of the points. Do it at home...hopefully you are a single adult and not doing it while you are pregnant, or in front of your children or stoned while your high school kids come home from school...then you are affecting people even in your own home. I believe it is harmful, can be addictive and can be abused and people who use it should have a huge responsibility of the consequences they bring home, especially if you are raising children. Just because you do it at home, doesn't mean no one else will be harmed.

Again, I am not against the use of pot and maybe it should be regulated like alcohol but please don't blow smoke up my ass and say that it isn't harmful physically, mentally, etc. because it is and can be just like any other drug out there. I have seen the effects first hand and nobody can tell me different. By the way, I am 39 and have probably been on this earth more than most here and have seen and experienced more than most, take my word for what it is worth.

Varegg wrote:

@DeathBecomesYu: I for one never said I knew what was going to happen but the scenario as it happened left many of the guesses/predictions I and many others made very close to what went down ...

@imortal: It's the least you can do to mend what you broke ...

I could play that game too. Let us predict what might happen in North Korea, or all this spending by the government, or what might happen in Iran from now on. Of course, people can talk about what happens and be right sometimes. There are predictions about everything for good and bad results. But again, you nor I have seen or heard any of the things that officials saw back them that led many people to go to war or caused other countries to join in.

Like I said it is highly hypocritical to listen to the link in this OP and then claim they "knew it" because you are doing the exact same thing you claim others did back then. You listened to some words of a captured dictator and then took it as gospel...but when people back in the day listened to the evidence, pics, taps etc, etc...then everyone now screams that they shouldn't have taken that stuff at face value. You see?

It is pretty easy to jump on the bandwagon when it fits your agenda or beliefs. When I say "you" I mean people in general who jumped on the Saddam bandwagon in this thread. Saddam said so, so it must be true. oops...then stop screaming at people who believed the evidence back then.

Bottom line, it happened, it can not be redone. There is no "reset" button and honestly, we will have to wait and see what happens 20 years or so down the line to know the true effects of what was done, mistakenly or not. It is nonsense to sit here and try to prove to others that what you predicted is right or wrong...I don't care. Does it make you feel better just to be right? How does that help the current situation now or in other places in this world?

Bertster7 wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Yes, some other idiotic politicians tried to tie the two...even many democrats and don't forget the campaign rhetoric that Gore and the democratic party was spewing that Bush was too soft on Saddam and spewing the same rhetoric about Saddam and WMD. Remember that?? Let's also not forget the dozens of international intelligence agencies who thought the same.  The international community was just as much to blame as Bush or anyone else.

Which intelligence agencies?

As far as I've ever been able to tell, no intelligence agencies saw any sort of link between Saddam and Al Qaeda. There are very clear reports that are now declassified from the Pentagon and from the CIA, both in 2002 that were extremely clear that there was no link.

The JIC got in a lot of trouble for fabricating evidence (though eventually got cleared and the BBC were the ones to get in trouble for breaking the story), after they plagiarised a students university coursework and used it as an intelligence report. The PM made and then retracted several statements about Saddam having WMDs, most notably the 45 minute claim.

Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, said it was "highly unlikely" Saddam had any WMDs remaining and accused the US and UK governments of dramatising the threat.

So the US intelligence agencies had evidence there was no link between Al Qaeda and Saddam, yet the administration told the public the opposite (and according to polls, 30-50% believed them) and kept asking the inteligence agencies to provide them with evidence of the link. The British intelligence agencies made up evidence, made spurious claims proven to be untrue before the war began and the person who leaked all the information committed suicide under suspicious circumstances - though of course the following inquiry cleared anyone (except the BBC, the reporter lost his job, as did the DG) of any wrong doing. UN officials allege that they were bugged, they presume by the US over the period of build up to the war.

It's all far too suspicious to just come out and say the intelligence agencies said it - because there is clear evidence that the British and American governments were telling the intelligence agencies what to put in the reports. No other intelligence agencies seemed to agree. The UN opposed the war utterly. The weapons inspections teams opposed the war. Virtually every country around the world opposed the war. How can you blame it on the international community when the blame so obviously lies solely with the US and UK.

Actually, I am speaking of WMD and yes many agencies were fooled and believed he had WMD and he did actually use those types of weapons against his neighbors and his own people (yes, other countries sold this stuff to him, including the US). I am not talking about intelligence as far as a link to Al-Qaeda. That was a stretch made later by politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle.  There were two gulf wars, liberation of Kuwait and then the attack because Saddam refused to cooperate with UN resolutions for years. Some politicians and agencies believed that weapons could get into the wrong hands if they were sold or technology was given to terrorists. Even Saddam himself in the OP news item said that he WANTED other countries to believe how powerful he MIGHT be to the detriment of his own country and he did everything he could to keep the veil of secrecy up and gave people the thought that he was hiding something.

I know Saddam was not friendly with Al-Qaeda but when people have a common enemy, sometimes they will cooperate. The North Korean situation is very similar except North Korea isn't afraid to talk trash and back it up with proof that they have those types of weapons. North Korea's main industry is selling weapons, selling the technology..etc.  Do you think they care who buys it?

By the way, Saddam was speaking to people who had captured him. Do you think he is going to sit there and not paint rosey pictures on his behalf. I find it funny that now we are taking his word as gospel and truth. Who really knows what he is saying is true, he was a prisoner trying to save his own butt....look trials after WW2....most pointed blame every where else except themselves. Why would Saddam be any different in the same situation.

I don't disagree with many things said in this post...I just find it funny and hypocritical when people in these forums claim to have known all along what was happening. Politicians, intelligence agencies, leaders..etc, etc. were confused and mislead. Yes, some knew more than the rest but it was a huge debate and history has already been made. I find it hilarious that now, guys in BF2 forum claim to have known all the answers long ago and can say "I told you so" when they didn't know shit...especially because Saddam said so. If you knew so much....then you guys should run for office and save the world because you should all know about the North Korean situation, clearly what is going to happen and when. Better start campaigning so you can fix it. Somehow, you guys have access to all this information, agencies, photos, briefs, taps, spies etc.....what are you waiting for....tell Obama what to do.

Varegg wrote:

usmarine wrote:

you didnt know, you guessed.  there is only one way to find out for sure yes?

You know the meaning of the word prediction no?

So you guessed everything perfectly.....do you have the next set of lottery numbers

Like I said...no one knew anything for sure and Saddam never helped his own case by cooperating at all. Let's not forget that Saddam invaded Kuwait, tried to escalate the war into something much larger by attacking Israel and even tried to attack part of Saudi Arabia (Battle of Khafji)

Please remember what the OP stated and what others jumped on Marine about. That we "stupid Americanos" somehow later thought Saddam was to blame. Again, no one I know thought or ever thought that. Even when the second gulf war started. I dont remember Bush going on TV and claiming that Saddam was behind 9-11 and that is why the US was going to attack. Others may have later but I dont recall that as a reason announced to the public.

Yes, some other idiotic politicians tried to tie the two...even many democrats and don't forget the campaign rhetoric that Gore and the democratic party was spewing that Bush was too soft on Saddam and spewing the same rhetoric about Saddam and WMD. Remember that?? Let's also not forget the dozens of international intelligence agencies who thought the same.  The international community was just as much to blame as Bush or anyone else.

Probably this is why no one is doing much about North Korea. They don't want to make the same mistake again.

Varegg wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Some of you need to remember what "hindsight" means.....seriously.

I remember it like this. When 9-11 happened, myself and everyone I knew blamed one group, who later told the world that they did it and every since our government has been rounding them up except for the leaders. I never heard from anyone who thought or believed that Saddam was behind or involved with 9-11.

Please remember why we fought Saddam.....he invaded Kuwait!!!!!!! and then threatened other countries. The US liberated Kuwait during the first gulf war with the help of 34 other nations and the UN blessing. No fly zones were set up and sanctions were put in place. Saddam refused to follow the sanctions and escalated the situation over and over by refusing UN inspectors, so forth....which heightened everyone's concerns(North Korea anyone?)...eventually the second gulf war happened with less support.

Now, I could care less about what ties he or she thought about. I knew two things....terrorists committed 9-11 and Saddam invaded another country and refused to cooperate with anyone. They were two separate issues that some people TRIED to tie together but again, no one I knew thought that way, maybe others did.

No one can say they "knew" what we are finding out now, not even the UN was sure, but for some of you to sit here and say "I told you so" is a joke. We will probably never really know the whole story and some of us are smart enough not to believe every word we hear in the press or our government (especially now). But seriously get off your high horses, your "I told you so" non-sense...none of you knew jack shit.

I wonder why you skipped the part about why Iraq was invaded ...

You are missing my point and no, I didn't forget why Iraq was invaded. My point is that none of you knew back then what you know now and that no one I knew thought the two were combined. By the way, there were many things I left out, for the sake of the post length...my point still stands.

Some of you need to remember what "hindsight" means.....seriously.

I remember it like this. When 9-11 happened, myself and everyone I knew blamed one group, who later told the world that they did it and every since our government has been rounding them up except for the leaders. I never heard from anyone who thought or believed that Saddam was behind or involved with 9-11.

Please remember why we fought Saddam.....he invaded Kuwait!!!!!!! and then threatened other countries. The US liberated Kuwait during the first gulf war with the help of 34 other nations and the UN blessing. No fly zones were set up and sanctions were put in place. Saddam refused to follow the sanctions and escalated the situation over and over by refusing UN inspectors, so forth....which heightened everyone's concerns(North Korea anyone?)...eventually the second gulf war happened with less support.

Now, I could care less about what ties he or she thought about. I knew two things....terrorists committed 9-11 and Saddam invaded another country and refused to cooperate with anyone. They were two separate issues that some people TRIED to tie together but again, no one I knew thought that way, maybe others did.

No one can say they "knew" what we are finding out now, not even the UN was sure, but for some of you to sit here and say "I told you so" is a joke. We will probably never really know the whole story and some of us are smart enough not to believe every word we hear in the press or our government (especially now). But seriously get off your high horses, your "I told you so" non-sense...none of you knew jack shit.

ATG wrote:

States brace for shutdowns

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld … 2245.story


What happened, did miss the news?

I am not quite sure...but aren't most states in trouble democratic run states. Michigan isn't far behind and is Democratically run as well.

Let people wear what they want, as long as they are covered in certain areas.....anyway, they are easier to catch if they do something wrong. It is hard to run when your pants are around your thighs.

Narupug wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txj1TYM6uU0
not spreaders of terror eh?

lame video....I am sure someone could have the same type of video using all dems or liberals. Maybe you are too young to remember but Al Gore made these types of speeches during his election bid. I am sure someone in these forums could enlighten you of the words Al Gore was spewing about Iraq, Saddam...etc. In fact, the Dems were very, very critical of Bush, using the same rhetoric leading up to those elections.

Anyhow, on topic, people who speak like this leader in California must think most people in the U.S. are terrorists. That is why liberal stations dont last because most people listen to conservative radio. He needs to get a thicker skin. I love the words he used as well....

"vote for revenue"???????????????

...so is revenue a new nicer word for taxes. Maybe I am wrong. How about telling it like it is or maybe slashing his spending.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I mean no disrespect.. but who cares? .. and the bit about no one giving a crap if someone rescues a child? That's not my experience at all.

Exactly - who cares what other people are entertained by?  It doesn't hurt you or negatively affect your life.  I don't go around sulking because people like Science Fiction or play WOW to entertain them, why should someone give a fuck what I do to entertain myself or who I look up to.  Why are you so interested in what "touches" people?  From the sounds of it you don't like the media coverage, so change the channel, turn of the TV, read a book, listen to music, play a video game, play with your kids, whatever.  The mainstream media does go apeshit over random acts of generousity or kindess, but there's a short attention span.  Michael was a fixture for at least 3 decades - he probably was the most popular person (not athelete, not pop star, not entertainer - the most popular person) in the world for a time.

I disagree a little bit. It does affect people's lives on occasion. There was a flash mob in London that halted traffic and brought police in. So it cost the city money to watch over a bunch of idiots using MJ's death to act like idiots. It affected the hospital where MJ was taken to the point, again police were brought in to keep people out of the hospital....pretty sick people to actually go to the hospital to try to get a glimpse and basically disrupt normal operations. Not only that, people were gathering around the wrong MJ star on the walk of fame, people brought chairs and sat in New York's square where the big sign was telling people about the death. People are actually camping outside of MJ's house right now!!!!!

Now, you can grieve and feel sorry for MJ, but some of these people are in need of serious help to go as far as they go, camping outside his house??? Right now there are kids being kidnapped, people murdered or dying in hospitals who gave more to society than MJ. MJ is famous, but some of this stuff is ridiculous and borders on lunacy. I would rather have people take the effort and be protesting about the energy bill, organizing protests at your state capital or maybe taking that effort and rallying for the Iranian people at the Iranian embassies. Seriously, get a life. Grieve and feel sorry, fine...spending your energy disrupting a hospital, a coroner's office and other people's lives..get mental help.

CameronPoe wrote:

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't  or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?

The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.

People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.

DBY - the cause is LEGITIMATE, it's the means that is questionable. And you're forgetting one very large elephant in the corner: the west arming Israel and facilitating their quest to develop nuclear capabilities.

The reasons for Palestinian statehood are legitimate but my point is that it will never happen until the Palestinian leadership becomes LEGIT. They need to weed out all the hands in the cookie jar. They need to get rid of the rogue elements that even threaten and kill their OWN people. Too many elements USE the Palestinian cause as a crutch or a ruse to cause other havok.

By the way, I didn't forget anything about Israel. I know they aren't angels and I know that their settlement building is over the top and I know that this conflict is being used as a proxy by both the west and the Arabs and it has been that way for thousands of years. The bottom line is that both sides are idiots but the Palestinians have lost control of their legitimacy. The cause is legitimate but not much else. Clean up their act and then Israel and the west can't say anything and when more land is taken or innocent Palestinians are killed, then only one side can be blamed. Maybe then, somebody will do the right thing.

I honestly don't know how it will ever end, its land that too many people want and claim, too many religions call their "home"...in my opinion, it will always be a vicious circle of violence. Even if Israel disappeared, I don't believe for a second that it would change anything. Some other group will claim and want this land too.

CameronPoe wrote:

Karbin wrote:

Cam, do you really think there would be a Jewish population there if the Arabs had won in '48?

There was one Karbin, there was, and there had been one there for several thousands of  years. The problem came when the region was flooded with people who had no right to be there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Apparently, its not the first time a group of people tried to plant themselves in another country. Should Israel follow suit and do as Jordan did? How come I never hear anyone crying about what happened here or why Jordan doesn't  or didn't allow Palestinians to create a homeland. I noticed that there aren't too many Arab countries allowing this too happen either. In fact, Egypt has a wall too to keep Palestinians out. How come no one wants the Palestinians....maybe because the leadership is infested with corruption and terrorism....maybe because Syria and Iran are meddling, providing arms and training to them. If Syria and Iran are so concerned..give the Palestinians a little corner to live in...wonder why they won't either?

The problem is that the Palestinian cause is a pawn used by quite a few elements to mess with Israel and vice versa. Until the Palestinians can clean their own house and be a LEGITIMATE cause, then there is no hope. Nothing is going to get done until then. Even if something is worked out, some outside group will do its best to mess it up. The land that is being fought over is claimed by many....many races, many religions and it has been for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change that. They will have to learn to live together or kill each other off and right now, they all choose the latter.

People need to stop blaming Israel for this mess or what is going on now. There is plenty of blame to go around and has been for thousands of years. Even Jordan called it "The Palestinian Problem" ....sounds familiar doesn't it? Everyone has to remember as well that Israel was attacked, Israel did win and DIDN'T keep every piece of land it could have kept, it gave a lot back even then. I don't hold Israel blameless, especially the settlement building but apparently no one is ready for Palestinians in any land. Not until they can prove legitimacy and clean up their act.

Dilbert_X wrote:

It'll be Sharia soon enough.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl … _iraq.html
http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/sharia.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 … 297054.htm

Of course there is a push for Sharia law but there is also a push against it. As far as I can tell, the push against it is winning out right now. Like I said in a previous post, who really knows. I know full well what Sharia is and what it can do and again in these forums, everybody uses it according to their agenda.

You are one of the guys who cries that its a small issue, that Islam is not a threat, but then you bring these links and posts and make it seem like it is inevitable. So which is it? Sharia law is reaching its ugly hands into many parts of the world, even Muslims I know (half of my family) do not want it and are living under threats of it. In one moment you put your head in the sand, the next you are proclaiming it a threat to women in Iraq.