top lel when muzzis claim religious freedom when they work at walmart and refuse to move pork or alcohol.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +635|3712
It is funny that conservative Christians in the U.S. constantly go on about how they have to hold onto their faith and not allow liberal leftist Hollywood culture to change the way they live. But if a Muslim wanted to hold onto their faith and not let society influence them that is not cool. Those people have to assimilate into American culture. The same culture they reject for being liberal.
Christians aren't too bad though. Catholics are fine. I like a lot of things about Catholicism too. Protestants are the annoying group. I think most of America's Christian problems come from protestants.
Christians aren't too bad though. Catholics are fine. I like a lot of things about Catholicism too. Protestants are the annoying group. I think most of America's Christian problems come from protestants.
Should be fucking riots. Use those gun rights for what they were invented already.RTHKI wrote:
well there are already boycotts
I swear to God the South fucking starts at U.S. 30. I shouldn't see any Confederate flags in Indiana since it is, after all, a northern state, and yet here we are.
hey cmon now yall, they know how to have a hootin hollerin time
this dynamic is flipped on its head in many other countries in europe. america was essentially founded by puritans and that ethic is still buried deep down in the psyche of the nation – in its approach to many social mores and particularly in its relation to labour (protestant work ethic + tenuous belief in a covenant-like exceptionalism). you may like american catholics, but that's because they are kind of quaint in the context of a nation that fled from those very same traditional, old-world strangleholds (not saying there aren't catholic social elites, but still). but really it's no more problematic than the insane catholic dogmatism of spain, or the way that orthodoxy affects russia, etc. the problem isn't really a theological one: it's more a general problem about power and elites. their ruling ideology just manifests itself and is reflected by their religious fervour. granted, protestantism has a whole lot of problems and contradictions, but so does any other religious faction. it's when those contradictions are played out on a national/world scale of political action that things become tricky.SuperJail Warden wrote:
It is funny that conservative Christians in the U.S. constantly go on about how they have to hold onto their faith and not allow liberal leftist Hollywood culture to change the way they live. But if a Muslim wanted to hold onto their faith and not let society influence them that is not cool. Those people have to assimilate into American culture. The same culture they reject for being liberal.
Christians aren't too bad though. Catholics are fine. I like a lot of things about Catholicism too. Protestants are the annoying group. I think most of America's Christian problems come from protestants.
it's not like the US conservatives are especially all that venal and corrupt in their attitude. sure, hypocritical in wanting american religious freedom but not islamic religious freedom. but then look at a majority muslim country with a 'devout' elite and tell me they aren't hypocritical in their attitudes. look at the saudi's attitude to vice and excess and fast cars and tell me it's in line with the wahhabist ideology that state spawned. there are tonnes of islamic or even hindu nations who profess one moral code and are full of swindlers and con-men in the corridors of power.
Last edited by uziq (2015-03-28 02:48:37)
stay fly and humble homie
I'd say preaching 'thou shalt not kill', 'turn the other cheek' etc and cheerfully slaughtering by the thousand people who are geopolitically annoying is somewhat hypocritical - further up the scale than buying Ferraris and banging eastern European hookers.uziq wrote:
it's not like the US conservatives are especially all that venal and corrupt in their attitude. sure, hypocritical in wanting american religious freedom but not islamic religious freedom. but then look at a majority muslim country with a 'devout' elite and tell me they aren't hypocritical in their attitudes. look at the saudi's attitude to vice and excess and fast cars and tell me it's in line with the wahhabist ideology that state spawned. there are tonnes of islamic or even hindu nations who profess one moral code and are full of swindlers and con-men in the corridors of power.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
yes but religion is full of these contradicting messages. it's not an absolute moral code. the only 'golden rule' of christianity that pervades all theological discussions is perhaps the 'treat other people as you wish to be treated' banalism. and even that seldom extends far beyond a small-scale, interpersonal ethics. you can turn any religious belief or doctrine inside out and find hypocrisy. these are moral-legalistic codes made of dozens of disparate texts, found, edited, translated, canonised etc. over thousands of years. officially islam says not to kill, too. but there are plenty of islamic leaders - or have been - who would happily kill. it's not quite so simple. you're letting your anti-US bias run away with you a bit there. the saudis are supremely hypocritical (just as the bahrainis, which i suspect is a little closer to home for you). the US right-wing might contradict itself frequently, but i know i'd rather live in wisconsin under that moral turpitude than live in the UAE.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'd say preaching 'thou shalt not kill', 'turn the other cheek' etc and cheerfully slaughtering by the thousand people who are geopolitically annoying is somewhat hypocritical - further up the scale than buying Ferraris and banging eastern European hookers.uziq wrote:
it's not like the US conservatives are especially all that venal and corrupt in their attitude. sure, hypocritical in wanting american religious freedom but not islamic religious freedom. but then look at a majority muslim country with a 'devout' elite and tell me they aren't hypocritical in their attitudes. look at the saudi's attitude to vice and excess and fast cars and tell me it's in line with the wahhabist ideology that state spawned. there are tonnes of islamic or even hindu nations who profess one moral code and are full of swindlers and con-men in the corridors of power.
tool of herding the poor
I'd rather live anywhere than under Islamic law, probably not Wisconsin, but that's not really the point.uziq wrote:
yes but religion is full of these contradicting messages. it's not an absolute moral code. the only 'golden rule' of christianity that pervades all theological discussions is perhaps the 'treat other people as you wish to be treated' banalism. and even that seldom extends far beyond a small-scale, interpersonal ethics. you can turn any religious belief or doctrine inside out and find hypocrisy. these are moral-legalistic codes made of dozens of disparate texts, found, edited, translated, canonised etc. over thousands of years. officially islam says not to kill, too. but there are plenty of islamic leaders - or have been - who would happily kill. it's not quite so simple. you're letting your anti-US bias run away with you a bit there. the saudis are supremely hypocritical (just as the bahrainis, which i suspect is a little closer to home for you). the US right-wing might contradict itself frequently, but i know i'd rather live in wisconsin under that moral turpitude than live in the UAE.
Ruling elites are invariably hypocrites, but most Islamic countries generally follow Islamic principles. I don't see how relentless accumulation of wealth, increasing disparity of quality of life and endless military belligerence really fits with 'Christian values'.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
accumulation is the key principle of capitalism, not christianity. but christianity is the ideological salad dressing of what constitutes a modern nation. america is not a theocracy. it's a capitalist republic with christian-inflected roots. religion may play a prominent role in public, civil life; it may be used as a cynosure in election campaigns; but it isn't the constitutive basis of society. america is a capitalist society first and foremost. and it's not unique in confronting several contradictions or conflicts with its purported religious roots. most of western europe dealt with the same crisis. protestantism was a convenient carrier for new forms of merchant trade and economy – think of the 'protestant work ethic' that max weber theorised. christianity has been turned to the service of worldly labour and accumulation many times before. it befits individualistic and enterprising protestants (or post-lutherans) more than catholics, but all the same: it's all in the books if you want to look for it. here's two off the top of my head that show no shirking of the logic of 'accumulation' and its dignity:
genesis 2:15 (“The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it”)
proverbs 16:3 (“Commit your work to the Lord, and your plans will be established”).
as for military belligerence, you must be being wilfully obtuse about the old testament. you've mentioned it dozens of times in the past as evidence of christianity's brutal roots. i know modern christianity is almost solely concerned with the NT, but c'mon, all of these old abrahamic texts and religions are based in a historical moment where various tribes rampaged around a dustbowl, committing wholesale genocides and burning cities. military conquest was part and parcel of the earliest jewish experience. to say that any of these monotheistic religions should be strictly pacifist is laughable. they all have escape clauses in their holy texts when it comes to putting the sword to someone – especially unbelievers.
genesis 2:15 (“The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it”)
proverbs 16:3 (“Commit your work to the Lord, and your plans will be established”).
as for military belligerence, you must be being wilfully obtuse about the old testament. you've mentioned it dozens of times in the past as evidence of christianity's brutal roots. i know modern christianity is almost solely concerned with the NT, but c'mon, all of these old abrahamic texts and religions are based in a historical moment where various tribes rampaged around a dustbowl, committing wholesale genocides and burning cities. military conquest was part and parcel of the earliest jewish experience. to say that any of these monotheistic religions should be strictly pacifist is laughable. they all have escape clauses in their holy texts when it comes to putting the sword to someone – especially unbelievers.
Last edited by uziq (2015-04-03 06:25:18)
So yes, America is a capitalist country which has some Christians in it, whereas Islamic countries are exactly that.
I thought I'd used the OT as evidence of Judaism's brutal roots and why it is what it is today, the OT being basically irrelevant to Christianity.
The average one-eyed Republican who calls himself an Old Testament Christian being the wilfully obtuse gorilla at the tea-party.
I thought I'd used the OT as evidence of Judaism's brutal roots and why it is what it is today, the OT being basically irrelevant to Christianity.
The average one-eyed Republican who calls himself an Old Testament Christian being the wilfully obtuse gorilla at the tea-party.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
that is essentially the difference, yes. many islamic countries are theocracies, or if not outright religious states, then totalitarian states with a hardcore, conservative religion to back up the state control (that scheme doesn't actually apply to half the middle-east after the arab spring, but putting aside the current limbo for simplicity's sake). america is a democracy and a free-market before it is any kind of religious project. the puritanical attitude gets cited a lot but it only really applies to the social mores and ethical norms of america, more than its legal or civic code. in any case, religion always has to make an uneasy compromise with secular/worldly powers, and that involves contradictions. power involves contradictions, period.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +635|3712
Business says they will discriminate and are given almost a million dollars for it. Does this put an end to the libertarian argument that "businesses that discriminate will go out of business because people will not support them'?Memories Pizza, the Indiana establishment, which sparked national outrage over its owner’s anti-LGBT comments made Wednesday during a local news broadcast, has raised a whopping $842,387 in donations from supporters.
Following Indiana’s contentious Religious Freedom Restoration Act, the Walkerton, Indiana restaurant became the subject of harsh criticism after co-owner Crystal O’Connor said she would refuse to cater gay marriages.
“If a gay couple came in and wanted us to provide pizzas for their wedding, we would have to say no,” she told a local ABC affiliate. “We are a Christian establishment.”
Following the backlash over the remarks, supporters of Memories started a GoFundMe campaign, and the owners of the pizzeria were flooded with donations from more than 29,000 people.
Nah. Kind of an isolated incident and there was a lot of anger built up over the years about the issue. I honestly have zero sympathy for the gay activists who are starting these witch hunts. If people don't want to cater your wedding just deal with it. Not everyone in life is going to like you. They certainly shouldn't be forced by the government to tolerate you beyond restraining any violence against you.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Business says they will discriminate and are given almost a million dollars for it. Does this put an end to the libertarian argument that "businesses that discriminate will go out of business because people will not support them'?Memories Pizza, the Indiana establishment, which sparked national outrage over its owner’s anti-LGBT comments made Wednesday during a local news broadcast, has raised a whopping $842,387 in donations from supporters.
Following Indiana’s contentious Religious Freedom Restoration Act, the Walkerton, Indiana restaurant became the subject of harsh criticism after co-owner Crystal O’Connor said she would refuse to cater gay marriages.
“If a gay couple came in and wanted us to provide pizzas for their wedding, we would have to say no,” she told a local ABC affiliate. “We are a Christian establishment.”
Following the backlash over the remarks, supporters of Memories started a GoFundMe campaign, and the owners of the pizzeria were flooded with donations from more than 29,000 people.
Last edited by Jay (2015-04-19 05:28:59)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
This kind of thing just annoys people
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an … -1.2154449
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an … -1.2154449
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +635|3712
Black people are born black and can't change. Because of that, it is illegal to discriminate against them and society mostly accepts that.
Gay people are born that way and can't help it. The parallels are obvious. I have zero sympathy for that business. Especially when they invoke religion in defense of their bigotry.
Gay people are born that way and can't help it. The parallels are obvious. I have zero sympathy for that business. Especially when they invoke religion in defense of their bigotry.
He could have just not been a faggot about it and taken his business elsewhere - isn't that how freedom is supposed to work?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
The difference now is that there are no Jim Crowe laws against gay people and it's not difficult to avoid businesses that are bigoted against you. The Internet changed everything. We seriously live in a first world country when we can afford to waste time on legislating "make them like me" laws. The activists and Twitter-outragers on both sides should be fed cyanide.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Black people are born black and can't change. Because of that, it is illegal to discriminate against them and society mostly accepts that.
Gay people are born that way and can't help it. The parallels are obvious. I have zero sympathy for that business. Especially when they invoke religion in defense of their bigotry.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +635|3712
These religious freedom bills are pretty Jim Crow like. Sure, they aren't forcing people to the back of a bus but they still give a person or community the ability to deny services and make life hell for people who are different by birth.Jay wrote:
The difference now is that there are no Jim Crowe laws against gay people and it's not difficult to avoid businesses that are bigoted against you. The Internet changed everything. We seriously live in a first world country when we can afford to waste time on legislating "make them like me" laws. The activists and Twitter-outragers on both sides should be fed cyanide.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Black people are born black and can't change. Because of that, it is illegal to discriminate against them and society mostly accepts that.
Gay people are born that way and can't help it. The parallels are obvious. I have zero sympathy for that business. Especially when they invoke religion in defense of their bigotry.
'Business owners should be allowed to discriminate" has to be the dumbest and most stupidly idealistic libertarian view ever. It makes sense if property rights are all that keep a country running but it is so pointlessly destructive in practice. It undermines communities, and causes economic deficiencies. Aren't you people supposed to be pragmatist? Is this really the one impractical policy you want to support?
Like most libertarian views, every developed and well developing country in the world rejects business discrimination. Muslims, libertarians, and racist are the only people who support businesses rejecting people for things like that.