Europe has many flaws but humans are flawed and nothing can be absolutely perfect. Having said that, has Europe finally reached the zenith of political and economic development?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-27 02:09:54)
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-27 02:09:54)
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-27 02:12:18)
I don't think the situations will ever quite be the same. You have a dominant military and economic state that has only been in existence for a little over 200 years and another growing at an insane rate (China). If China cleaned up their human rights issues my money would be on them.Bubbalo wrote:
Politically, definitely not. Borders will continue to weaken until Europe is, effectively, one nation. Economically, it depends on how long before human extinction. If we go on long enough, Europe is bound to (eventually) become the economic centre once again, just because that's what happens.
All IMHO, of course.
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-27 02:16:06)
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.ThomasMorgan wrote:
There is too much differing opinion in Europe, be it religious or otherwise.
Tolerance?.. Martin Luther..Pilgrims anyone? ..lol, surely you are talking of recent historyVaregg wrote:
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.ThomasMorgan wrote:
There is too much differing opinion in Europe, be it religious or otherwise.
As Camerons title explains: At peace now & forever ?Kmarion wrote:
Tolerance?.. Martin Luther..Pilgrims anyone? ..lol, surely you are talking of recent historyVaregg wrote:
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.ThomasMorgan wrote:
There is too much differing opinion in Europe, be it religious or otherwise.
Understood Bubbalo,
As much as I would love that, tolerance is not something today's society understands well.Varegg wrote:
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.ThomasMorgan wrote:
There is too much differing opinion in Europe, be it religious or otherwise.
I'm sorry, I misinterpreted when you said what it is today to mean the historical journey that created the current state. My fault.Varegg wrote:
As Camerons title explains: At peace now & forever ?Kmarion wrote:
Tolerance?.. Martin Luther..Pilgrims anyone? ..lol, surely you are talking of recent historyVaregg wrote:
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.
Understood Bubbalo,
Guess that means my post was directed at recent history, with that said i could most probably find examples that says it`s not so but the big picture is correct at present day imho !
Tolerance got a crack global wise after 9/11 no doubt, but i think Europe is the one continent that have solved the interracial problems the best and have to an extent come a long way to break down the barriers caused by 9/11.ThomasMorgan wrote:
As much as I would love that, tolerance is not something today's society understands well.Varegg wrote:
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.ThomasMorgan wrote:
There is too much differing opinion in Europe, be it religious or otherwise.
I know of a Reverend who once said something very similar. One of the greatest speeches in American history.Varegg wrote:
Could be because religion is declining in Europe and we look at the person for what he/she is and judge them by their actions not their believes ........
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-27 03:14:34)
I know this isn't the direction you were intending to go when you brought up 9/11, but I'm going to say it anyway.Varegg wrote:
Tolerance got a crack global wise after 9/11 no doubt, but i think Europe is the one continent that have solved the interracial problems the best and have to an extent come a long way to break down the barriers caused by 9/11.ThomasMorgan wrote:
As much as I would love that, tolerance is not something today's society understands well.Varegg wrote:
The clue here is tolerance for other religions and political believes and that is what have made Europe what it is today, a multicultural and multireligious society in almost perfect balance and i think it will stay that way for a long time to come.
Could be because religion is declining in Europe and we look at the person for what he/she is and judge them by their actions not their believes ........
I specifically mentioned the former Yugoslavia as a cooling 'hotspot'.Kmarion wrote:
I take it you guys are excluding some states as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area", but they did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.
Surely there is a balance between warmongering and pacificism.
Couldn't help this guy is all over the news now. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070226/wl … 0226113224CameronPoe wrote:
I specifically mentioned the former Yugoslavia as a cooling 'hotspot'.Kmarion wrote:
I take it you guys are excluding some states as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area", but they did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.
Surely there is a balance between warmongering and pacificism.
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-27 03:21:57)
That's one of the built-in faults of the human psyche; there's nothing like a good enemy to create a sense of unity...ThomasMorgan wrote:
I know this isn't the direction you were intending to go when you brought up 9/11, but I'm going to say it anyway.Varegg wrote:
Tolerance got a crack global wise after 9/11 no doubt, but i think Europe is the one continent that have solved the interracial problems the best and have to an extent come a long way to break down the barriers caused by 9/11.ThomasMorgan wrote:
As much as I would love that, tolerance is not something today's society understands well.
Could be because religion is declining in Europe and we look at the person for what he/she is and judge them by their actions not their believes ........
Quite possibly the nicest thing that came from 9/11 was the feeling of comradery I got. Everyone was smiling at each other. Everyone was friendly. I would walk down the street and everyone I saw would smile at me and say hello. It was honestly one of the best feelings. You could walk into a store, and everyone would be as friendly as could be...everywhere you went.
That's what America should be.
Hell, that's what the world should be.
I can image that is the truth unless your name is Ahmed !ThomasMorgan wrote:
I know this isn't the direction you were intending to go when you brought up 9/11, but I'm going to say it anyway.Varegg wrote:
Tolerance got a crack global wise after 9/11 no doubt, but i think Europe is the one continent that have solved the interracial problems the best and have to an extent come a long way to break down the barriers caused by 9/11.ThomasMorgan wrote:
As much as I would love that, tolerance is not something today's society understands well.
Could be because religion is declining in Europe and we look at the person for what he/she is and judge them by their actions not their believes ........
Quite possibly the nicest thing that came from 9/11 was the feeling of comradery I got. Everyone was smiling at each other. Everyone was friendly. I would walk down the street and everyone I saw would smile at me and say hello. It was honestly one of the best feelings. You could walk into a store, and everyone would be as friendly as could be...everywhere you went.
That's what America should be.
Hell, that's what the world should be.
Seems to me that the US reached this level of maturity and peace on its continent in 1900. The US had wars between their states and with neighbors but all has been peaceful and stable for a really long time. Nothing really special about europe getting close to this 100 years later.CameronPoe wrote:
It appears to me that Europe, with its bloody chequered history, has finally come to a mature and peaceful rest. Where once war was a core part of the European diet there now exists peace, co-operation, security, prosperity and progress. The last few hotspots - Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia - seem to be nearing resolution.
Uhm, europe is facing economic difficulties. Unemployement is huge problem. Growth in the EU15 is poor. Worker productivity is lagging way behind targets . The Lisbon Strategy has become a joke in the EU. We can debate why this is so but how productive is your working population going to be when you're paying around 50% of your salary to the state? In any case the numbers don't make a case for Europe as an economic model of success. Btw:CameronPoe wrote:
Europe strikes a healthy balance between nationalism and international co-operation between member countries. Europe has developed a socialist form of capitalism providing the best of both worlds, economically speaking, - steady rates of economic growth coupled with generous social welfare (helping to keep income gaps, for the most part, relatively small and ensuring that pretty much no-one gets 'left behind').
Study by Timbro: A Swedish Think Tank wrote:
http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/
New study compares GDP and growth: EU versus USA
If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.
Stark differences become apparent when comparing official economic statistics. Europe lags behind the USA when comparing GDP per capita and GDP growth rates. The current economic debate among EU leaders lacks an understanding of the gravity of the situation in many European countries. Structural reforms of the European economy as well as far reaching welfare reforms are well overdue. The Lisbon process lacks true impetus, nor is it sufficient to improve the economic prospects of the EU.
EU versus USA is written by Dr Fredrik Bergström, President of the Swedish Research Institute of Trade, and Mr Robert Gidehag, until recently Chief Economist of the same institute and now President of the Swedish Taxpayer's Association.
I agree with this. EU environment regulations are very strict and will become even stricter.CameronPoe wrote:
Europe is the most environmentally aware region on earth and is taking measures to address environmental issues, even if other countries won't.
The EU's common security and defense policy exists only in theory. The Bosnian/Kosovo conflict will forever be a black eye for Europe's security policy. I won't get into the iraq debate except to say that if europe thinks that the US is the real enemy, then they have a very short memory and are bound to see history repeat itself...in their disfavor.CameronPoe wrote:
Europe is viewed by many as an almost impartial arbiter in international matters - the Palestine situation being a case in point. The majority of Europe refused to endorse or engage in the Iraq war, a brave and correct decision in the face of extreme pressure from a powerful ally, with many of those that did engage in it finally coming to their senses through the pressure exerted on their governments by the people: true democracy.
conclusion: if you want to make a case for europe as a model for the world, aside from the environmental arguement, I think you've picked the worst possible areas for your arguement. Europe, for all its wonderful virtues, is from a global perspective in a period of decadence: they are complacent, indifferent, have weak leadership, and just don't have the competitive drive of a world power anymore. After many hundreds of years of being the center of global power, europe is content to take it easy. Unfortunately history tells us this is not a good thing: China, India and Russia are rising. Islam is the world's largest relgion (and we know the problems there). We are far from becoming a planet that is governed by Utopian principles as some europeans would see. We live in a world with conflicts, wars, dangerous ideologies, unscrupulous government, fierce competition from economic globalization, mass migrations and most dangerously the technologies so advanced that it can be used to kill millions at time, possibly even destroy the planet. Seems to me that europe is ignoring human history by minimilizing these issues.CameronPoe wrote:
Europe has many flaws but humans are flawed and nothing can be absolutely perfect. Having said that, has Europe finally reached the zenith of political and economic development?
you can't put the two together Soup, US internal wars and Europe, Europe is a continent, US a country, Europe has many different cultures/believes and what not, the two world wars well, WW1 was just playing stupid, WW2 had to be fought.soup wrote:
Seems to me that the US reached this level of maturity and peace on its continent in 1900. The US had wars between their states and with neighbors but all has been peaceful and stable for a really long time. Nothing really special about europe getting close to this 100 years later.
Last edited by Varegg (2007-02-27 03:56:15)
Some of the points you raise as being bad points are exactly what I believe to be Europe's strong points. By choosing the socialist path Europe has automatically ceded the competitive edge and lives with that in the knowledge that the chosen path leads to a higher standard of living and quality of life albeit lower levels of growth. As a consequence unemployment is higher - but unemployment in Europe is not quite the struggle it is in USA: free healthcare, dental care, welfare payments, subsidised housing, etc. - no real cause for complaint: a basic guaranteed quality of life, which is comfortable but not luxurious thus encouraging the unemployed to seek gainful employment and to better themselves, secure in the knowledge that if they fail they will always be able to bounce back given the safety net underneath them.superfly_cox wrote:
Let me preface this by saying that I am a European/American hibrid. I was born in Europe, grew up in the US and have been back in europe the past 5 years. I actually like both places very much and feel i understand them both very well: good and bad alike.
Regarding the post, I must say that I've got big issues with Europe as a model of peace and stability:
Seems to me that the US reached this level of maturity and peace on its continent in 1900. The US had wars between their states and with neighbors but all has been peaceful and stable for a really long time. Nothing really special about europe getting close to this 100 years later.
Uhm, europe is facing economic difficulties. Unemployement is huge problem. Growth in the EU15 is poor. Worker productivity is lagging way behind targets . The Lisbon Strategy has become a joke in the EU. We can debate why this is so but how productive is your working population going to be when you're paying around 50% of your salary to the state? In any case the numbers don't make a case for Europe as an economic model of success. Btw:I agree with this. EU environment regulations are very strict and will become even stricter.Study by Timbro: A Swedish Think Tank wrote:
http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/
New study compares GDP and growth: EU versus USA
If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.
Stark differences become apparent when comparing official economic statistics. Europe lags behind the USA when comparing GDP per capita and GDP growth rates. The current economic debate among EU leaders lacks an understanding of the gravity of the situation in many European countries. Structural reforms of the European economy as well as far reaching welfare reforms are well overdue. The Lisbon process lacks true impetus, nor is it sufficient to improve the economic prospects of the EU.
EU versus USA is written by Dr Fredrik Bergström, President of the Swedish Research Institute of Trade, and Mr Robert Gidehag, until recently Chief Economist of the same institute and now President of the Swedish Taxpayer's Association.
The EU's common security and defense policy exists only in theory. The Bosnian/Kosovo conflict will forever be a black eye for Europe's security policy. I won't get into the iraq debate except to say that if europe thinks that the US is the real enemy, then they have a very short memory and are bound to see history repeat itself...in their disfavor.
conclusion: if you want to make a case for europe as a model for the world, aside from the environmental arguement, I think you've picked the worst possible areas for your arguement. Europe, for all its wonderful virtues, is from a global perspective in a period of decadence: they are complacent, indifferent, have weak leadership, and just don't have the competitive drive of a world power anymore. After many hundreds of years of being the center of global power, europe is content to take it easy. Unfortunately history tells us this is not a good thing: China, India and Russia are rising. Islam is the world's largest relgion (and we know the problems there). We are far from becoming a planet that is governed by Utopian principles as some europeans would see. We live in a world with conflicts, wars, dangerous ideologies, unscrupulous government, fierce competition from economic globalization, mass migrations and most dangerously the technologies so advanced that it can be used to kill millions at time, possibly even destroy the planet. Seems to me that europe is ignoring human history by minimilizing these issues.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-27 04:18:24)
The collective takes priority over the individual. They will not let their talented rise too high and we will not let their lazy fall too low. Equality does not mean equal opportunity but rather Equal limitations. Europeans demand security at all cost. I am however not betting on Europe remaining Pacifist though. Europe will manage to find it's way, reforming itself when necessary. It will change because change will be forced upon it (out of competitive necessity). European genius and adaptation does have a dark side though. Europeans have had thousands of years to master genocide and ethnic cleansing. I'm not prepared to throw that out due to a brief period without conflict.superfly_cox wrote:
conclusion: if you want to make a case for europe as a model for the world, aside from the environmental arguement, I think you've picked the worst possible areas for your arguement. Europe, for all its wonderful virtues, is from a global perspective in a period of decadence: they are complacent, indifferent, have weak leadership, and just don't have the competitive drive of a world power anymore. After many hundreds of years of being the center of global power, europe is content to take it easy. Unfortunately history tells us this is not a good thing: China, India and Russia are rising. Islam is the world's largest relgion (and we know the problems there). We are far from becoming a planet that is governed by Utopian principles as some europeans would see. We live in a world with conflicts, wars, dangerous ideologies, unscrupulous government, fierce competition from economic globalization, mass migrations and most dangerously the technologies so advanced that it can be used to kill millions at time, possibly even destroy the planet. Seems to me that europe is ignoring human history by minimilizing these issues.
Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-27 04:19:41)