that dude obviously didn't need to be shot (in hindsight) but damn dude, you gotta be either very tired, very drunk, or really REALLY fucking stupid if you've got multiple guns pointed at you and you can't keep you hands up. is it honestly that hard to put your hands in the air then not repeatedly touch the rest of your body every few seconds?
people behave weirdly under extreme stress or when in shock. why are you trying to blame an innocent person for being shot? shouldn't it be the police exercising extreme caution? who protects whom, here?pirana6 wrote:
that dude obviously didn't need to be shot (in hindsight) but damn dude, you gotta be either very tired, very drunk, or really REALLY fucking stupid if you've got multiple guns pointed at you and you can't keep you hands up. is it honestly that hard to put your hands in the air then not repeatedly touch the rest of your body every few seconds?
a lot of people with mental health problems will dissociate and jar up entirely in scenarios like the above. reminds me too of the story of that guy who got tazed or maced or whatever repeatedly because he was having a STROKE whilst driving a car. and people still said it was his fault. lol. fucking morons. the first thing you do to a guy who is behaving weirdly or erratically is try to get him help, not fucking shoot him.
Generally speaking US police seem to be poorly educated, under-trained and over-steroided.
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honest to god...uziq wrote:
people behave weirdly under extreme stress or when in shock. why are you trying to blame an innocent person for being shot? shouldn't it be the police exercising extreme caution? who protects whom, here?pirana6 wrote:
that dude obviously didn't need to be shot (in hindsight) but damn dude, you gotta be either very tired, very drunk, or really REALLY fucking stupid if you've got multiple guns pointed at you and you can't keep you hands up. is it honestly that hard to put your hands in the air then not repeatedly touch the rest of your body every few seconds?
a lot of people with mental health problems will dissociate and jar up entirely in scenarios like the above. reminds me too of the story of that guy who got tazed or maced or whatever repeatedly because he was having a STROKE whilst driving a car. and people still said it was his fault. lol. fucking morons. the first thing you do to a guy who is behaving weirdly or erratically is try to get him help, not fucking shoot him.
re-read the first 8 words in my post.
is that so? based on what? your inability to turn off the TV or the internet? the fact that you only hear about the shitty cops and not the normal ones?Dilbert_X wrote:
Generally speaking US police seem to be poorly educated, under-trained and over-steroided.
generally speaking are all christians fucking psycho because of the WBC? afterall that's mostly what I see on the news and read about online.
are all australians fucking retarded because of abbott? that's the biggest australian i see in the news and read about online.
christ dilbert youre smarter than that
my point is there is no conjunction. there is no BUT. you have a gun and you should exercise extreme caution when using it on members of the public you're supposed to serve. the first 8 words are about 20% of your post: the rest is you cavilling the guy for basically bringing it upon himself. no. guns should be drawn on innocent people in exceptional circumstances.
the police were wrong in shooting him yes BUT this wasn't an open and shut case. it wasn't some guy walking down the road and being shot in the back by some cop. he kept reaching down to where a gun would be if he had one. sure he didn't but had he had one and been able to draw it quickly the lives of the cops would be quickly in danger.
i'm making my argument then showing it's not an absolute answer with a few rebuttal facts because the world is generally not either black or white. it brings a discussion to the table, after all we're all here for that right?
you want an absolute argument?
the cops were wrong.
i'm making my argument then showing it's not an absolute answer with a few rebuttal facts because the world is generally not either black or white. it brings a discussion to the table, after all we're all here for that right?
you want an absolute argument?
the cops were wrong.
I think much of it can be blamed on improper training of police officers. I'm sorry but it's as though they've got the completely wrong idea about the conduct of their profession. From what I've seen they're often extremely violent/trigger happy when compared to any other police force in the western world.
Hasn't gone unnoticed either, much has been written about the militarisation of the police in the US, particularly since this war on terror thing started.
Hasn't gone unnoticed either, much has been written about the militarisation of the police in the US, particularly since this war on terror thing started.
The militarization of the police is a separate subject altogether. It's about training, it's about psychological assessment, it's about education (or in the case of many police officers, lack of higher education), and it's about holding people accountable. The last part is what rubs me wrong the most - there is virtually ZERO accountability by police for excessive force. It's like when you're a toddler and you constantly act out to see what you can get away with. If mommy never tells you it's not ok, you're going to keep doing it.
Most cops aren't that bright. New York City even has a cap on how intelligent the cops they hire can be...pirana6 wrote:
honest to god...uziq wrote:
people behave weirdly under extreme stress or when in shock. why are you trying to blame an innocent person for being shot? shouldn't it be the police exercising extreme caution? who protects whom, here?pirana6 wrote:
that dude obviously didn't need to be shot (in hindsight) but damn dude, you gotta be either very tired, very drunk, or really REALLY fucking stupid if you've got multiple guns pointed at you and you can't keep you hands up. is it honestly that hard to put your hands in the air then not repeatedly touch the rest of your body every few seconds?
a lot of people with mental health problems will dissociate and jar up entirely in scenarios like the above. reminds me too of the story of that guy who got tazed or maced or whatever repeatedly because he was having a STROKE whilst driving a car. and people still said it was his fault. lol. fucking morons. the first thing you do to a guy who is behaving weirdly or erratically is try to get him help, not fucking shoot him.
re-read the first 8 words in my post.is that so? based on what? your inability to turn off the TV or the internet? the fact that you only hear about the shitty cops and not the normal ones?Dilbert_X wrote:
Generally speaking US police seem to be poorly educated, under-trained and over-steroided.
generally speaking are all christians fucking psycho because of the WBC? afterall that's mostly what I see on the news and read about online.
are all australians fucking retarded because of abbott? that's the biggest australian i see in the news and read about online.
christ dilbert youre smarter than that
http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barr … y?id=95836
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
tbh I don't think it's intelligence so much as its about the personality/psyche of police officers or those that want to be officers. I've known personally more than a few people go into the system and they want to be officers because they have the holier-than-tho personality. They think police officers are above the rest of the public and can do whatever they want with no accountability (as ken said). They get a boner by having power over people. Excessive force doesn't mean shit to these people because they think theyre completely justified in any action they take.
and if they didn't think that already, training will force them to think that way.
and if they didn't think that already, training will force them to think that way.
Based on the incredible number of people they manage to kill or maim.pirana6 wrote:
is that so? based on what? your inability to turn off the TV or the internet? the fact that you only hear about the shitty cops and not the normal ones?
We haven't even touched on the gross brutality which seems to typify many arrests, people slammed into the ground and assaulted after they've been handcuffed, often when they've been wrongly arrested.
Apparently walking along a street and not speaking perfect English is worthy of having your back broken
Having a license plate which confuses an ignorant cop is worthy of being tased and slammed into the ground
Its a result of:
Poorly educated, and poorly/unsuitably trained people being given the right to use any force they see fit based on snap judgements
General lack of accountability
An unsuitable mindset, so many police seem to believe they are god-like warriors protecting 'sheeple' (this is a common theme in Police forums).
Once a sheeple makes a transgression they become 'the enemy' and no longer have rights. That so many are ex-military and have been quickly and crudely trained to deal brutally with 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is a big part of it.
Yes I occasionally watch 'Cops' amongst other things. The casual brutal treatment of citizens, who have done nothing, or only a minor transgression, is shocking to anyone outside America.
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and just so we can cut to the chase... what happens if I search 'australian police brutality'? Will my search come up empty? Or will I see videos and articles about nutso australian police who hurt innocent people?
What makes nutso aussie police different from nutso US police?
What makes nutso aussie police different from nutso US police?
our cops rarely shoot people.pirana6 wrote:
and just so we can cut to the chase... what happens if I search 'australian police brutality'? Will my search come up empty? Or will I see videos and articles about nutso australian police who hurt innocent people?
What makes nutso aussie police different from nutso US police?
i honestly think it's more about the prevalence of guns in america that makes cops so angsty rather than anything else. knowing that every suspect potentially is carrying a firearm where in Australia most worst case scenarios are someone having a knife.
I have no doubt the Australian police shoot people less. Both less per capita and total but the thing is they do, be it thousands a year or once, they do. So why is the few they do just 'writeoffable' (not an actual quote - just surmising) but when the US police do it theyre "poorly educated, under-trained and over-steroided"
never said it was 'writeoffable' but our police comes under incredible amounts of scrutiny whenever a service weapon is discharged.pirana6 wrote:
I have no doubt the Australian police shoot people less. Both less per capita and total but the thing is they do, be it thousands a year or once, they do. So why is the few they do just 'writeoffable' (not an actual quote - just surmising) but when the US police do it theyre "poorly educated, under-trained and over-steroided"
few months ago a mentally ill woman outside burger king wielded a knife, cops surrounded her and tried to tase her but failed, then she lunged towards the officer and got shot.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/h … 7214478648
i heard that US coppers would draw out their service weapon on a daily or bidaily basis, whilst aussie cops (due to lack of guns in the country) would at best draw it once a month.
tldr being trained to shoot 6-8 bullets each every time from each officer present is shitty training
I'm sure I could find some stats, I'd struggle to think of a case where the police here gratuitously shot an unarmed person over the last 10 years, in the UK its probably a handful in the last 100 years, and sure those incidents probably weren't dealt with well.
There's occasional use of excessive force, rarely on the scale which seems to be a daily event in the US.
The policy is usually one of containment, waiting and trying to resolve the situation with minimum force, not one of hoping that maximum force will fix things, and not caring if it doesn't.
There's occasional use of excessive force, rarely on the scale which seems to be a daily event in the US.
The policy is usually one of containment, waiting and trying to resolve the situation with minimum force, not one of hoping that maximum force will fix things, and not caring if it doesn't.
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Again, I'm sure the amount is far less but yet again you see the loud minority and call it everyone. Where the hell did you read the manual of every police station and see it says 'use excessive force as often as possible'.
I had multiple guns pulled on me by police once, I'm still alive?
I had multiple guns pulled on me by police once, I'm still alive?
that's the thing, cops in other countries DON'T pull guns on someone unless they have a weapon on hand.pirana6 wrote:
Again, I'm sure the amount is far less but yet again you see the loud minority and call it everyone. Where the hell did you read the manual of every police station and see it says 'use excessive force as often as possible'.
I had multiple guns pulled on me by police once, I'm still alive?
Literally every single time? Or just a hell of a lot less?
You shouldn't be drawing your weapon unless you intend to use it. Not in case you need it, or as a way of intimidating a suspect, but only if you intent to shoot someone. And you should only be using a firearm to kill. Cops have many other non lethal tools starting with and most importantly their voice.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/video … dia/#page1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUuajAwMhcQ
Whats the difference?
No one died, no one was shot, a gun wasn't even drawn, no one was tased. The only one to sustain a serious injury was given on the spot medical attention.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4204129.htmpirana6 wrote:
and just so we can cut to the chase... what happens if I search 'australian police brutality'? Will my search come up empty? Or will I see videos and articles about nutso australian police who hurt innocent people?
What makes nutso aussie police different from nutso US police?
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/video … dia/#page1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUuajAwMhcQ
Whats the difference?
No one died, no one was shot, a gun wasn't even drawn, no one was tased. The only one to sustain a serious injury was given on the spot medical attention.
The FBI reports that in 2011, cops in America killed 404 suspects in acts of “justifiable homicide.” Astonishingly, though, as FiveThirtyEight reports, this number likely doesn’t include every civilian fatality that year since it relies on voluntary reporting and doesn’t include police homicides that aren’t justifiable.
Still, 404 is a large number. By comparison, just six people were killed by police in Australia over the same period. Police in England and Wales killed only two people, and German police killed six.
Last edited by DrunkFace (2015-07-17 22:00:06)
Most places around the world police are prohibited from drawing their firearm unless there is a clear and immediate threat, normally with the clear presence of a weapon.pirana6 wrote:
Literally every single time? Or just a hell of a lot less?
Just drawing a firearm from the holster would mean weeks of reports, inquiries etc. They aren't to be used as a casual tool for enforcing compliance.
And yes other places seem to be able to deal with firearms without the police opening up on anyone who doesn't behave exactly as expected.
Anecdotally South Australia has a population of 2 million, 250,000 registered firearms and yet the Police and public can cooperate without daily shootings.
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to be fair dils, people aren't legally allowed to carry their guns on them in aus.
Most of the incidents the US police have to deal with would be people carrying illegally, but to be fair there aren't so many illegal guns here.
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