Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You say every Israeli frowns upon those things, yet that's simply not the case. If it isn't a majority who approve of the action taken to secure Israel for the Jews, it's certainly close. Things like the Deir Yassin massacre and the King David hotel bombing are not condemned by all Israelis as you claim - and it is that mindset that is the biggest problem.
And how do you know? You've been there? Granted I was only there for 2 1/2 weeks and will be going back for another 2 1/2 in June, but I've spoken to probably hundreds of Israelis. One soldier I even became good friends with who is coming to NY at the end of May even called the situation in the West Bank similar to apartheid. Our tour guide called Irgun a terrorist organization. A business owner I met said he thinks the way the country was formed was not in the best terms and that the fact that any settlements are going on right now is disgusting.

I'd really like to know what basis you have for a comment like that. Again, not that 2 1/2 weeks is enough time to gauge the opinions of all Israelis, but every Israeli I met from every part of the country that I was able to discuss the situation with, whether it be in the Galil/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Negev, almost overwhelmingly was against any form of terror, is against settlements and wants to return to the '67 borders with the Golan Heights as long as the Palestinians 1) acknowledge Israel's existence 2) condemn terrorism 3) seek peace. As I mentioned, any Arab that wants to live in peace in Israel may, and that's why you even see Arabs in the Knesset.
What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6124|what

Poseidon wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

The wall only went up as a deterrent to suicide bombings and terrorism, and it's worked beautifully. Is it a perfect solution? Of course not, because it does restrict movement and does create a terrible situation for some villages which are split in half. But guess what? That sucks. I'd rather see the wall up and aid sent in than see Israelis under the thread of suicide bombing on a daily basis.
So the "threat" of suicide bombing is enough to justify actual terrible situation of Palestinian villages cut in half and then decimated?

You realise that cutting villages in half wipes out those villages, yeah?

Israel has created a ghetto, and you're fine with it.
There was this timeline of events called the "Second Intifada". Google it, it's interesting history!

Did I not just say that I wish a better alternative was in place? Once again you selectively read what you want. But overall, I choose it over the threat of suicide bombings. Which happened at a consistent rate when the wall wasn't up and the West Bank wasn't extremely secured.

As for Mr. Bigot's claim of bullshit in terms of Arabs being able to live in peace in Israel should they choose to, he can shoot it down all he wants, the simple fact is it's true. For example, the town of Abu Ghosh which I visited. Overwhelmingly Arab town close to the border of the West Bank. Also the town of Akko. They conduct business and their everyday lives with Israelis just fine. Also, the Bedouins and Druze - both have lived in Israel and choose to live in peace.
Terrorism isn't an existential threat to Israel.

Bulldozed homes, a blockade of goods entering and leaving Palestine, dividing walls and ghetto's is an existential threat to Palestinians.

Learn the difference.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You say every Israeli frowns upon those things, yet that's simply not the case. If it isn't a majority who approve of the action taken to secure Israel for the Jews, it's certainly close. Things like the Deir Yassin massacre and the King David hotel bombing are not condemned by all Israelis as you claim - and it is that mindset that is the biggest problem.
And how do you know? You've been there? Granted I was only there for 2 1/2 weeks and will be going back for another 2 1/2 in June, but I've spoken to probably hundreds of Israelis. One soldier I even became good friends with who is coming to NY at the end of May even called the situation in the West Bank similar to apartheid. Our tour guide called Irgun a terrorist organization. A business owner I met said he thinks the way the country was formed was not in the best terms and that the fact that any settlements are going on right now is disgusting.

I'd really like to know what basis you have for a comment like that. Again, not that 2 1/2 weeks is enough time to gauge the opinions of all Israelis, but every Israeli I met from every part of the country that I was able to discuss the situation with, whether it be in the Galil/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Negev, almost overwhelmingly was against any form of terror, is against settlements and wants to return to the '67 borders with the Golan Heights as long as the Palestinians 1) acknowledge Israel's existence 2) condemn terrorism 3) seek peace. As I mentioned, any Arab that wants to live in peace in Israel may, and that's why you even see Arabs in the Knesset.
What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.
There is absolutely no way what I'd seen traveling throughout the country 3 months could be such a stark difference to what you've seen unless you've come in with an agenda. There was not and probably will never be one shred of evidence that any Israeli wouldn't condemn the Deir Yassin massacre. Especially considering it goes against the basic IDF doctrine of purity of arms.

AussieReaper wrote:

Terrorism isn't an existential threat to Israel.
It's not one to the United States either. I guess they shouldn't take any precautionary measures.

Last edited by Poseidon (2012-03-26 13:18:55)

Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

And how do you know? You've been there? Granted I was only there for 2 1/2 weeks and will be going back for another 2 1/2 in June, but I've spoken to probably hundreds of Israelis. One soldier I even became good friends with who is coming to NY at the end of May even called the situation in the West Bank similar to apartheid. Our tour guide called Irgun a terrorist organization. A business owner I met said he thinks the way the country was formed was not in the best terms and that the fact that any settlements are going on right now is disgusting.

I'd really like to know what basis you have for a comment like that. Again, not that 2 1/2 weeks is enough time to gauge the opinions of all Israelis, but every Israeli I met from every part of the country that I was able to discuss the situation with, whether it be in the Galil/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Negev, almost overwhelmingly was against any form of terror, is against settlements and wants to return to the '67 borders with the Golan Heights as long as the Palestinians 1) acknowledge Israel's existence 2) condemn terrorism 3) seek peace. As I mentioned, any Arab that wants to live in peace in Israel may, and that's why you even see Arabs in the Knesset.
What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.
There is absolutely no way what I'd seen traveling throughout the country 3 months could be such a stark difference to what you've seen unless you've come in with an agenda. There was not and probably will never be one shred of evidence that any Israeli wouldn't condemn the Deir Yassin massacre. Especially considering it goes against the basic IDF doctrine of purity of arms.
I'm struggling to follow your posts. What does the 3 months in the post above refer to?

Where did you go? Did you visit any settlements in the OTs?

The IDF - lol
The IDF was initially composed of the terrorists (2 of the 3 terror groups (the Irgun and Haganah - not Lehi) formed into what is now the IDF, any claims about purity of arms are bullshit).
The leader of the Irgun, the man behind the King David Hotel bombing and the Deir Yassin massacre, was later elected as prime minister of Israel - that's some serious public condemnation right there.

I don't doubt you met some nice Israelis when you were over there who had moderate views.

There's no way you'd miss all this stuff unless you are very deliberately turning a blind eye.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2012-03-26 13:55:38)

Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

What basis do I have for a statement like that? Other than time spent there, time spent with Israelis, reading Israeli media, being a member of various Israeli internet forums and speaking to/emailing people in Israel on a daily basis?

I'm sure the places you went to were full of lots of nice and reasonable moderate seeming Israelis. Try going out to the settlements in the OTs. It's there were everything becomes clear.

You seem to have a very blinkered one sided view of this whole situation.
There is absolutely no way what I'd seen traveling throughout the country 3 months could be such a stark difference to what you've seen unless you've come in with an agenda. There was not and probably will never be one shred of evidence that any Israeli wouldn't condemn the Deir Yassin massacre. Especially considering it goes against the basic IDF doctrine of purity of arms.
I'm struggling to follow your posts. What does the 3 months in the post above refer to?

Where did you go? Did you visit any settlements in the OTs?

The IDF - lol
The IDF was initially composed of the terrorists (2 of the 3 terror groups (the Irgun and Haganah - not Lehi) formed into what is now the IDF, any claims about purity of arms are bullshit).
The leader of the Irgun, the man behind the King David Hotel bombing, was later elected president of Israel.

There's no way you'd miss all this stuff unless you are very deliberately turning a blind eye.
So I've repeatedly said that Israel was obviously not formed in the rosiest of situations - as if ANY country ever has been - and you continue to act like that matters today in the current government and military. It's almost funny. Almost.

No I didn't visit any settlements but I was all over the country and spoke with people of different backgrounds and cultures. I don't see why you'd need to go into the settlements - people I've already said are radicals - to determine how regular Israelis think about terrorism.

So you've basically been trying to push the point that the settlers are radicals who support terrorism? Congratulations, I've always thought the same.

And wow, Menachem Begin, who brokered one of the biggest peace deals EVER, one that still exists today, is your reasoning for thinking Israelis support terrorism? That is too funny.

Last edited by Poseidon (2012-03-26 13:47:46)

Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


There is absolutely no way what I'd seen traveling throughout the country 3 months could be such a stark difference to what you've seen unless you've come in with an agenda. There was not and probably will never be one shred of evidence that any Israeli wouldn't condemn the Deir Yassin massacre. Especially considering it goes against the basic IDF doctrine of purity of arms.
I'm struggling to follow your posts. What does the 3 months in the post above refer to?

Where did you go? Did you visit any settlements in the OTs?

The IDF - lol
The IDF was initially composed of the terrorists (2 of the 3 terror groups (the Irgun and Haganah - not Lehi) formed into what is now the IDF, any claims about purity of arms are bullshit).
The leader of the Irgun, the man behind the King David Hotel bombing, was later elected president of Israel.

There's no way you'd miss all this stuff unless you are very deliberately turning a blind eye.
So I've repeatedly said that Israel was obviously not formed in the rosiest of situations - as if ANY country ever has been - and you continue to act like that matters today in the current government and military. It's almost funny. Almost.

No I didn't visit any settlements but I was all over the country and spoke with people of different backgrounds and cultures. I don't see why you'd need to go into the settlements - people I've already said are radicals - to determine how regular Israelis think about terrorism.

So you've basically been trying to push the point that the settlers are radicals who support terrorism? Congratulations, I've always thought the same.

And wow, Menachem Begin, who brokered one of the biggest peace deals EVER, one that still exists today, is your reasoning for thinking Israelis support terrorism? That is too funny.
I still don't understand your previous post. Could you clarify what the 3 months is alluding to?

My reasoning for thinking that Israelis support terrorism/illegal governmental action is that: virtually every Israeli I've ever asked about the King David hotel bombing has thought it was a good thing (that's about 50, maybe 10 of those from settlements - 2 of those I asked condemned it, in the mildest possible terms); Israelis predominantly vote in hard line governments who support expansion of settlements in the OTs and any moves to freeze settlement activity are met with a public backlash.

I first became interested in this topic after a friend of mine (from London) went back to Israel to do his national service. He came back horrified and is now the staunchest anti-Zionist I know. His stories (many of which he had photos and video footage to go with) really opened my eyes to what is going on there.

If Bin Laden had brokered a peace deal or two, would that have excused him from his previous actions? Would you turn a blind eye to those too? Would you think a country who elected him as Prime Minister was full of terrorist sympathisers or would you think they'd probably just picked the best man for the job?

There is no logic to your posts. Also, you still haven't said what that the 3 months bit in your post relates to - what is it about?
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

Bertster7 wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I'm struggling to follow your posts. What does the 3 months in the post above refer to?

Where did you go? Did you visit any settlements in the OTs?

The IDF - lol
The IDF was initially composed of the terrorists (2 of the 3 terror groups (the Irgun and Haganah - not Lehi) formed into what is now the IDF, any claims about purity of arms are bullshit).
The leader of the Irgun, the man behind the King David Hotel bombing, was later elected president of Israel.

There's no way you'd miss all this stuff unless you are very deliberately turning a blind eye.
So I've repeatedly said that Israel was obviously not formed in the rosiest of situations - as if ANY country ever has been - and you continue to act like that matters today in the current government and military. It's almost funny. Almost.

No I didn't visit any settlements but I was all over the country and spoke with people of different backgrounds and cultures. I don't see why you'd need to go into the settlements - people I've already said are radicals - to determine how regular Israelis think about terrorism.

So you've basically been trying to push the point that the settlers are radicals who support terrorism? Congratulations, I've always thought the same.

And wow, Menachem Begin, who brokered one of the biggest peace deals EVER, one that still exists today, is your reasoning for thinking Israelis support terrorism? That is too funny.
I still don't understand your previous post. Could you clarify what the 3 months is alluding to?

My reasoning for thinking that Israelis support terrorism/illegal governmental action is that: virtually every Israeli I've ever asked about the King David hotel bombing has thought it was a good thing (that's about 50, maybe 10 of those from settlements - 2 of those I asked condemned it, in the mildest possible terms); Israelis predominantly vote in hard line governments who support expansion of settlements in the OTs and

I first became interested in this topic after a friend of mine (from London) went back to Israel to do his national service. He came back horrified and is now the staunchest anti-Zionist I know. His stories (many of which he had photos and video footage to go with) really opened my eyes to what is going on there.

If Bin Laden had brokered a peace deal or two, would that have excused him from his previous actions? Would you turn a blind eye to those too? Would you think a country who elected him as Prime Minister was full of terrorist sympathisers or would you think they'd probably just picked the best man for the job?

There is no logic to your posts. Also, you still haven't said what that the 3 months bit in your post relates to - what is it about?
It was a typo. My trip was 3 months ago.

I just think it's funny that you're using one event from over 50 years ago to define how a nation views terrorism. Jesus, right after the even actually happened it was widely condemned, even though the first Prime Minister of Israel called the attack disgusting, that's your indication that an entire people support terrorism. I've never seen so much proof in my life. I mean, it's not like there's a group of people who actually voted in people who commit terrorist attacks weekly out there for you to criticize. Nah. Gotta harp on an event that was widely condemned after it happened in 1946.

any moves to freeze settlement activity are met with a public backlash.
So why is it most Israelis are in favor of dismantling settlements? I guess your sampling of people is a bit off, eh? And even older polls which trend more towards in favor of the settlers state that most would be in favor of dismantling settlements if it meant peace with the Palestinians.

Netanyahu is an asshole, no doubt. I can't stand him. But he's loved because he comes off to Israelis as someone who will not stand for any terrorism nor will he stand for threats from the Iranians. He's a nationalist and that appeals to people. But he's never sent someone with a bomb belt onto a crowded city bus filled with women and children.

This entire argument is basically you saying "oh well they started off comprised of..." while I talk about the current situation. It must be nice living in the past and using that as your argument for how things are today.

Last edited by Poseidon (2012-03-26 14:38:52)

AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6124|what

Hey guys, most Israeli's are actually against the wall, the settlements, the war crimes, the stolen land, the humanitarian crisis! So it's totally all ok and will work out cause we stopped some bombings!


Your logic is amazing, Pos.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

AussieReaper wrote:

Hey guys, most Israeli's are actually against the wall, the settlements, the war crimes, the stolen land, the humanitarian crisis! So it's totally all ok and will work out cause we stopped some bombings!


Your logic is amazing, Pos.
You're the one who basically just said terrorism is not a big deal, bud.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX

Dilbert_X wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

The wall only went up as a deterrent to suicide bombings and terrorism, and it's worked beautifully. Is it a perfect solution? Of course not, because it does restrict movement and does create a terrible situation for some villages which are split in half. But guess what? That sucks. I'd rather see the wall up and aid sent in than see Israelis under the thread of suicide bombing on a daily basis.
Its very much a one way wall though isn't it? The Israelis are free to come and go, seize more land, kill Palestinians as they like, the Palestinians are prevented from retaliating.

I'd really like to know what basis you have for a comment like that. Again, not that 2 1/2 weeks is enough time to gauge the opinions of all Israelis, but every Israeli I met from every part of the country that I was able to discuss the situation with, whether it be in the Galil/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Negev, almost overwhelmingly was against any form of terror, is against settlements and wants to return to the '67 borders with the Golan Heights
Then why do they keep electing the likes of Netanyahu and Lieberman?
Where is the political candidate or party which is promoting peace as an agenda?
If Israelis vote en-masse for anti-peace pro-settlement governemnts its reasonable to conclude that Israelis on the average are anti-peace and pro-settlement.

as long as the Palestinians 1) acknowledge Israel's existence 2) condemn terrorism 3) seek peace.
They've done all that years ago, whats the holdup? Continued settlement building, expansion of borders and this non-sensical demand that the Palestinians recognise Israel as an exclusively jewish state.
As I mentioned, any Arab that wants to live in peace in Israel may
Bullshit.
If they as a whole choose to go the way of terrorism (much like the people in the Gaza Strip did by choosing a terrorist organization to lead them), well, guess what? That sucks. If you choose to be lead by terrorists, you'll be treated like them.
So, if a nation is founded by terrorists and war criminals, regularly elects terrorists and war criminals to government and routinely commits acts of terror and war crimes, routinely elects anti-peace pro-aggression governments - how should they be treated?

Poseidon wrote:

for Mr. Bigot's claim of bullshit in terms of Arabs being able to live in peace in Israel should they choose to, he can shoot it down all he wants, the simple fact is it's true. For example, the town of Abu Ghosh which I visited. Overwhelmingly Arab town close to the border of the West Bank. Also the town of Akko. They conduct business and their everyday lives with Israelis just fine. Also, the Bedouins and Druze - both have lived in Israel and choose to live in peace.
Thats your only response? To accuse me of being a bigot again and try to pick apart the one argument you think you have a chance with?
Well done.

As for Palestinian Arabs living in Israel, providing:

They don't live on land an Israeli wants - because its pretty easy for an Israeli to turf a Palestinian off land or out of a house
They don't want to marry someone from outside Israel - because they'll be denied an entry visa
They don't want any of their relatives to come and live with them - because they'll be denied an entry visa
They don't want to have children with anyone outside Israel - they'll be denied entry and citizenship
They don't ever want to set foot outside Israel - for fear of being denied re-entry

then its very easy for a Palestinian arab to live in the apartheid state which is Israel, with the various discriminatory laws which apply only to non-jews.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX

Poseidon wrote:

Netanyahu is an asshole, no doubt. I can't stand him. But he's loved because he comes off to Israelis as someone who will not stand for any terrorism nor will he stand for threats from the Iranians. He's a nationalist and that appeals to people. But he's never sent someone with a bomb belt onto a crowded city bus filled with women and children.
Correct, he sends F16s laden with uranium tipped high explosive laser guided bombs to drop on women and children, not suicide bombers, how very civilised.

This entire argument is basically you saying "oh well they started off comprised of..." while I talk about the current situation. It must be nice living in the past and using that as your argument for how things are today.
Its an ongoing situation. It would be convenient for you to forget all the Israeli atrocities right up to the present day and focus only on the Palestinians terrorist activity, but no-ones stupid enough to fall for that.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6703|Cambridge, England

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Jesus. How would any of your countries react to terrorist attacks?

The UK invaded Afghanistan and has occupied it for 10 years because their friends the Americans were attacked and here are you lot getting pissed about a wall.

Of course it is completely different because nobody here lives in Israel therefore we can preach from our high horses about all the shite thats happening. How do you stop suicide bombers in the short and immediate term?

Im not interested in the history lesson, they are where they are. How do they stop them?
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

How to stop suicide bombers in short term- Preemptively kill them all. Is that the answer you're looking for?
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5970|...
build a wall
inane little opines
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5230|foggy bottom
eat a pizza
Tu Stultus Es
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5970|...
solves everything
inane little opines
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6703|Cambridge, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

How to stop suicide bombers in short term- Preemptively kill them all. Is that the answer you're looking for?
No im looking for a reasoned alternative. Considering how diabolical the wall is, what is the obvious and humane way of doing it?

At the moment it all sounds pretty hypocritical considering the western worlds involvements in conflicts all over the place for lesser reasons.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2012-03-27 16:11:10)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

i don't think the wall was built to contain terrorism any more than I think the post 9/11 security measures implemented were to contain terrorism.

There is no humane way to immediately stop suicide bombers.  You're asking for a solution that doesn't exist.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6124|what

Remember when Gaza was more than a mere strip?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

How to stop suicide bombers in short term- Preemptively kill them all. Is that the answer you're looking for?
Stop stealing their land and murdering their children?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6687
so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6124|what

Cybargs wrote:

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.
If someone committed suicide it's okay to commit war crimes and ethnic cleansing against the civilian population who had nothing to do with the bomber?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX

Cybargs wrote:

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.
If someone steals your land its fine to kill them, yes. Thats been how the world has worked since forever.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6687

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.
If someone steals your land its fine to kill them, yes. Thats been how the world has worked since forever.
bit different attacking a formal military than attacking a civilian population.

this shits just as stupid as the balkans.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6124|what

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

so if someone stole my land its ok for me to commit suicide attacks?

ok.
If someone steals your land its fine to kill them, yes. Thats been how the world has worked since forever.
bit different attacking a formal military than attacking a civilian population.

this shits just as stupid as the balkans.
so which is that israel are doing? oh, right.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

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