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Believe what you want. I'm not going to sit here trying to convince you of anything.uziq wrote:
sorry but this is dumb and flies completely in the face of respiratory science. we are not talking about HVAC jay and aerosols. 95% of infections occur in very close proximity to one another and with relatively large, semi-liquid viral molecules, not fine aerosols at very, very low parts per million.Jay wrote:
When I design a ventilation system that is able to capture viruses I am pulling through a 2" pre-filter and a 4" primary filter. I have to upsize my fan quite a bit because it's a lot like pulling air through a straw. If you don't get the same sensation when you're wearing a mask it's not doing anything for you. Masks gave people a feeling of being in control of an uncontrollable situation and got many scared people back to work, but they're little more than a placebo.Larssen wrote:
Both masks and the current cycle of vaccines are imperfect but best effort attempts at preventing more death than health systems can cope with or is necessary. You know for a fact that they (1) lessen the chance of you getting the virus (2) lessen the chance of you infecting someone else (3) lessen the (possible) severity of symptoms with onset of the disease.
All are of net benefit to society. Whilst you may care for direct covid-related care, there are people who have had necessary operations delayed for many months because hospital wards are full of covid patients and doctors/nurses aren't available to return to regular order of business. For a practical example; I've once been operated on a deviated septum after breaking my nose. If this happened sometime in 2020, chances are I'd still be on the waiting list for an operation. And that's mild. There's people with far more pressing health needs that aren't being met.
tldr and you should know this by now, getting vaccinated, boostered, wearing your mask, are very simple things you can do to allow the system to function as well as it could under these circumstances.
I will say that it's nice to see you come around to the position I was in nearly two years ago. Protect the old and the sick and move on with our lives.
Zoom class. Office workers. Not generational.uziq wrote:
i'm with you that omicron looks much less severe. but delta cases are still high in the USA and its stats are nothing like so mild and glib as you make out.
puzzled by your comment about 'only zoomers' caring about covid. is this like a further twist of idiocy in america? first it was only democrats who cared, and now it's been filtered by generation? that doesn't accord with the picture anywhere i've seen it in europe or asia. people are still thinking of 'society'-wide measures and how they can shelter seniors/the vulnerable/etc.
When I design a ventilation system that is able to capture viruses I am pulling through a 2" pre-filter and a 4" primary filter. I have to upsize my fan quite a bit because it's a lot like pulling air through a straw. If you don't get the same sensation when you're wearing a mask it's not doing anything for you. Masks gave people a feeling of being in control of an uncontrollable situation and got many scared people back to work, but they're little more than a placebo.Larssen wrote:
Both masks and the current cycle of vaccines are imperfect but best effort attempts at preventing more death than health systems can cope with or is necessary. You know for a fact that they (1) lessen the chance of you getting the virus (2) lessen the chance of you infecting someone else (3) lessen the (possible) severity of symptoms with onset of the disease.
All are of net benefit to society. Whilst you may care for direct covid-related care, there are people who have had necessary operations delayed for many months because hospital wards are full of covid patients and doctors/nurses aren't available to return to regular order of business. For a practical example; I've once been operated on a deviated septum after breaking my nose. If this happened sometime in 2020, chances are I'd still be on the waiting list for an operation. And that's mild. There's people with far more pressing health needs that aren't being met.
tldr and you should know this by now, getting vaccinated, boostered, wearing your mask, are very simple things you can do to allow the system to function as well as it could under these circumstances.
But I've now had covid twice (had it again right after Christmas) and in both cases my most serious symptom was a hangover headache coupled with fatigue. The only people that care about covid anymore are the zoomers.uziq wrote:
it will measurably boost your protection against serious illness and death, that's why.Jay wrote:
That doesn't answer my question, now does it? Why do I need a booster? What will it do for me?uziq wrote:
because the kind benevolent scientist men told you it’s good for you, and you don’t want your family turning up in one of those news stories that talk about your death-bed regrets. ‘ayn rand was wrong … i was … betrayed by alex jones …’
if you had a vaccine early last year, and presumably haven't caught the 'rona since then, then your antibody levels will be low and your immune system not fully prepared.
I know more people that have had covid in the past three weeks than have not. Only one semi serious case among the lot of them. Covid is over. By the time they make an omicron shot it will have been gone for six months. This is what endemic looks like.
I think both sides have really fucked the whole thing up by trying to one up each other on the extremism. I do recognize that abortion means a life is taken, but I leave the moral judgement to others. I don't feel strongly.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Roe v Wade?
I don't work in the city anymore so I honestly couldn't care less.SuperJail Warden wrote:
New NYC mayor?
Pass. But honestly it depends on who the Democrats put up.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Trump '24?
When it's required, but they're about as good at keeping away the covid bogeyman as a rosary prayer is at warding off evil spirits.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Do you use facemask?
That doesn't answer my question, now does it? Why do I need a booster? What will it do for me?uziq wrote:
because the kind benevolent scientist men told you it’s good for you, and you don’t want your family turning up in one of those news stories that talk about your death-bed regrets. ‘ayn rand was wrong … i was … betrayed by alex jones …’
Why?uziq wrote:
no one cares lard ass. get a booster.
And I'm not back, I just checked in for the first time in months because I'm traveling and bored. This place turned me into an angry person when I was actively here.
Has it been that long?SuperJail Warden wrote:
First things first, thanks for coming back. I hope all is well. I am interested in hearing your thoughts about a lot of things. New perspective yadda yadda.Jay wrote:
Sure, go aheadSuperJail Warden wrote:
I have like so many questions but let's start with the deck...
1: 2016 Election. Outcome, fraud, Jan 6?
2: COVID vaccinated? Mandates?
3: CRT in Schools?
4: George Floyd?
1. No fraud, but I am happy the voting rights bill won't pass. It is written to favor the activist left, which we all need less of in our lives, not more. January 6th was a bunch of idiots acting the fool but it has been blown entirely out of proportion for political purposes.
2. Sure, I got vaccinated last March. I did it because I knew Cuomo wouldn't relax restrictions until he hit his goal. That was me doing my part. I would not oppose mandates if the vaccine actually prevented infection, but it doesn't. The community protection argument is persuasive only if it were to actually protect the community, rather than just lessening serious illness for individuals. Protecting hospital space is not critical enough in my eyes.
3. Overblown, but real. Enough people have been forced to take DEI training that a garbled, half educated version does make it down to kids. I think DEI in general is an abomination.
4. Only became an issue because it was an election year.
Sure, go aheadSuperJail Warden wrote:
I have like so many questions but let's start with the deck...
Turned out well, thanksunnamednewbie13 wrote:
Holy crap dude, how's it going? How's your deck?
Nahunnamednewbie13 wrote:
Jay would huffily tell you all about how you want the world to suffer so you can spend another Christmas with your gundams.
I never posted wrong information on purpose. I did say it was just the flu, and that was incorrect, I agree. I spent most of my time in this thread arguing with people that were convinced 10% of earths population was on the verge of being wiped out. I believe I spent a lot of time pointing out the overlap with the people who believe the world is going to die from climate change in ten years. I never said people shouldn't social distance or take precautions with ppe. I did say it wasn't worth it to shut down the economy and I believe my reasoning was that the American population can't be controlled and the virus would spread regardless. You focused on my one comment about tissue boxes for 180 pages and ignored the rest.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
If I did, it was probably a recommendation for the N95 masks that hospitals were low on.Jay wrote:
I guess you don't remember giving me shit for buying masks at home depot back in march. I believe you told me to donate them to a hospital.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
There's like two days between the first example's posts. Crazy. I wonder if Jay is on twitter with this stuff? Earlier in this thread I would have probably been panned by him for saying I wore a mask. Now he doesn't have a problem with it and never did.
CDC's mask policy change came as new information was uncovered, but did not invalidate other measures like social distancing, not touching your face, staying at home when possible, or (and I know you made fun of it) washing your hands. And the concerns about incorrect wearing and handling of the masks and the inherent overconfidence are still a thing.
Most of the masks I see in public these days are the DIY ones. I have a cloth one with a filter insert.
Should I be flattered or disturbed at the claim that you spent 180+ pages in this thread posting wrong information just to troll me?
Trump, yes. Bush, about equal.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Do you think he was a better president than Bush or Trump?Jay wrote:
Not the worst. Absolutely the most overhyped. Too many shitty things his administration did were waved off by a protective media.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Jay sincerely believes Barack Obama was the worst president in American history. I don't know how you can say something like that especially considering the two presidents he is bracketed by.
Not the worst. Absolutely the most overhyped. Too many shitty things his administration did were waved off by a protective media.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Jay sincerely believes Barack Obama was the worst president in American history. I don't know how you can say something like that especially considering the two presidents he is bracketed by.
I guess you don't remember giving me shit for buying masks at home depot back in march. I believe you told me to donate them to a hospital.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
There's like two days between the first example's posts. Crazy. I wonder if Jay is on twitter with this stuff? Earlier in this thread I would have probably been panned by him for saying I wore a mask. Now he doesn't have a problem with it and never did.
Nah, I'm not though. I'm not defending Trump, I'm lamenting the complete loss of civility. Our country made it through nearly 250 years of orderly transitions from one President to the next, with the previous President peacefully stepping aside. That was the precedent that George Washington set, and it has been followed perfectly. Now a new precedent has been set that, if the outgoing administration really, really hates the incoming one, they will undermine them from the start and prosecute their cohorts. This is the kind of shit that eventually leads to one of them saying "You know what? I don't want to leave". Remember when the Bush administration complained about the Clinton administration trashing the place and stealing phones and stuff on their way out the door? Seems quaint now.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Obama weakened privacy, signed off on extrajudicial killings, went after whistle-blowers...there's plenty of things to criticize.
But Obama is no longer president. We are talking about the Trump White House. Trump has set more precedents regarding the fulfillment of the role of President that it will likely be studied in academic settings in the future. That's the best possible takeaway from the last 4 years.
Jay, reminder: you hate the lack of unification, but every time someone says something about Republicans you pull the "b-b-but what about Joe Biden." "Hillary would have been worse."
You are part of the problem you pretend to worry about.
Dude, do you think Democrats are saints? Do you think there was no corruption or cronyism in the Obama administration? I guess you forgot the way he prosecuted whistleblowers and people that leaked to the media. He was ruthless. If Biden wins, do you think he has nothing to hide? His family made tens of millions of dollars selling his influence.DesertFox- wrote:
Yes, it's the Democrats fault. Not the unprecedented self-dealing, cronyism, and general scumminess of the current administration. Why can't they just be cool, man? I have no doubt that's how Republicans will see it because they hitched their wagon to a glitzy conman, so even people like Mueller get painted as secret Deep State Democrats for having the gall to try to look behind the curtain.
I believe they got him on conspiracy or something. Really weak shit.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Stop doing illegal things then, I guess.
The Mueller stuff was complete horse shit from the start.
The Democrats have really set so many godawful precedents during this presidency. We're potentially in a world where every transfer of power is now accompanied by the previous administrations' appointees conducting witch hunts to throw the new administrations' people in jail. This is what they wrought.
The Democrats have really set so many godawful precedents during this presidency. We're potentially in a world where every transfer of power is now accompanied by the previous administrations' appointees conducting witch hunts to throw the new administrations' people in jail. This is what they wrought.
Presidents pardon people all the time. It's one of the perks of the job.uziq wrote:
how is anyone not regarding this roger stone thing as absolute corruption? the president has just pardoned someone sentenced in large part because of crimes associated with said executive.
Eurovision: the story of Fire Saga - 7/10
Funniest Will Ferrell movie I've seen in a long time
Funniest Will Ferrell movie I've seen in a long time
So, Biden was the Senator from Delaware for 36 years. Delaware is where American corporations go to incorporate if they want to remain American flagged. This is because Delaware has no state corporate income tax. This gave him access to a very large number of American corporations and their lobbying dollars. It's why he spent so many years in Senate leadership positions. Leadership positions aren't generally handed out based on talent, but on the ability to rake in donations for The Party and thus accrue allies.
Chuck Schumer is Senate Minority Leader because he represents New York and milks Wall Street for all he can for the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi does the same to the tech industry out in California. It's why she is Speaker of the House. She can make or break other peoples re-election campaigns by either distributing or withholding mega dollars to her fellow Congresspeople. This is how American party politics works. Generally, when a bill to regulate an industry is proposed in the Senate or the House, it is a milker bill. It is designed to scare the industry into coughing up campaign dollars.
The idealists like Warren and Bernie and AOC have no real power because they don't do anything for their fellow members of Congress. Thus, they have no power, because they have no allies. Yes, this generally means they are less corrupt. Score one for them.
Chuck Schumer is Senate Minority Leader because he represents New York and milks Wall Street for all he can for the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi does the same to the tech industry out in California. It's why she is Speaker of the House. She can make or break other peoples re-election campaigns by either distributing or withholding mega dollars to her fellow Congresspeople. This is how American party politics works. Generally, when a bill to regulate an industry is proposed in the Senate or the House, it is a milker bill. It is designed to scare the industry into coughing up campaign dollars.
The idealists like Warren and Bernie and AOC have no real power because they don't do anything for their fellow members of Congress. Thus, they have no power, because they have no allies. Yes, this generally means they are less corrupt. Score one for them.
Uh huh.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
oh, it's because you don't understand the function of large law firms. That makes sense.Jay wrote:
Rank Sector Amount To Cands/Parties Dems Repubs To DEMS To REPUBSKEN-JENNINGS wrote:
It's weird that tech companies are your new favorite pet. You know tech companies would never support any sort of weatlh distribution downward, right? Just to be clear the next time you try to call Tom Steyer or Jeff Bezos a leftist.
Trial lawyers? Lol dude where do you get these? What articles are you reading? Generally curious
1 Finance/Insur/RealEst $942,324,754 $533,531,541 47.7% 52.0% $254,272,766
2 Other $646,528,890 $544,428,742 65.9% 33.5% $358,636,228
3 Ideology/Single-Issue $627,840,545 $349,192,979 60.2% 39.4% $210,278,565
4 Misc Business $409,141,196 $254,603,505 47.0% 52.6% $119,636,167
5 Health $276,868,889 $190,280,085 56.4% 43.2% $107,317,588
6 Communic/Electronics $243,744,744 $168,072,253 72.0% 27.4% $121,039,358
7 Lawyers & Lobbyists $229,498,437 $217,997,658 72.5% 27.0% $158,060,765
8 Labor $174,235,896 $70,336,709 85.6% 13.9% $60,186,396
9 Energy/Nat Resource $144,703,059 $96,663,130 22.5% 77.3% $21,764,507
10 Agribusiness $99,058,524 $80,130,446 29.7% 69.8% $23,823,952
11 Construction $87,560,411 $77,930,556 30.6% 68.9% $23,868,312
12 Transportation $74,166,087 $69,406,390 29.8% 69.8% $20,705,153
13 Defense $30,477,652 $30,292,902 41.0% 58.3% $12,422,426
https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/sectors.php
Honestly, I'd say Biden is worse, but let's call it a wash.uziq wrote:
i suppose trump can’t go after biden for being corrupt because it’s very very bad optics for himself
Rank Sector Amount To Cands/Parties Dems Repubs To DEMS To REPUBSKEN-JENNINGS wrote:
It's weird that tech companies are your new favorite pet. You know tech companies would never support any sort of weatlh distribution downward, right? Just to be clear the next time you try to call Tom Steyer or Jeff Bezos a leftist.
Trial lawyers? Lol dude where do you get these? What articles are you reading? Generally curious
1 Finance/Insur/RealEst $942,324,754 $533,531,541 47.7% 52.0% $254,272,766
2 Other $646,528,890 $544,428,742 65.9% 33.5% $358,636,228
3 Ideology/Single-Issue $627,840,545 $349,192,979 60.2% 39.4% $210,278,565
4 Misc Business $409,141,196 $254,603,505 47.0% 52.6% $119,636,167
5 Health $276,868,889 $190,280,085 56.4% 43.2% $107,317,588
6 Communic/Electronics $243,744,744 $168,072,253 72.0% 27.4% $121,039,358
7 Lawyers & Lobbyists $229,498,437 $217,997,658 72.5% 27.0% $158,060,765
8 Labor $174,235,896 $70,336,709 85.6% 13.9% $60,186,396
9 Energy/Nat Resource $144,703,059 $96,663,130 22.5% 77.3% $21,764,507
10 Agribusiness $99,058,524 $80,130,446 29.7% 69.8% $23,823,952
11 Construction $87,560,411 $77,930,556 30.6% 68.9% $23,868,312
12 Transportation $74,166,087 $69,406,390 29.8% 69.8% $20,705,153
13 Defense $30,477,652 $30,292,902 41.0% 58.3% $12,422,426
https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/sectors.php
The party is the old guard types like Schumer and Pelosi. AOC has no power. Neither does Bernie. Biden is as corrupt and morally bankrupt as they get.uziq wrote:
so are the democrats all puppets of radical bernie and AOC or are they corrupt hillary? which one is actually the present party and danger? because you seem to flip between alternative takes depending on whether you’re pointing out trump’s wisdom or AOC’s uselessness or whatever.Jay wrote:
they rake in their campaign money from Wall Street, tech companies, trial lawyers, the medical industry and colleges. They're not trying to reform shit. They're up to their eyeballs in corruption and lobbyist money.uziq wrote:
the democrats do, but they're the ones you keep ridiculing as being jealous? errrr
where’s biden going to fall on that policy spectrum? genuine question. he’s obviously not going to be a far-left radical.
they rake in their campaign money from Wall Street, tech companies, trial lawyers, the medical industry and colleges. They're not trying to reform shit. They're up to their eyeballs in corruption and lobbyist money.uziq wrote:
the democrats do, but they're the ones you keep ridiculing as being jealous? errrr
I'm going to take the second article with a grain of salt. It may be right, or it may be cherry picked. Maybe they are carrying forward previous year losses? I don't know.uziq wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/19/tax-avoidance-by-the-rich-could-top-5-trillion-in-next-decade.htmlhttps://fortune.com/2019/04/11/amazon-s … avoidance/A research paper by Lawrence Summers, a former Treasury Secretary, and finance professor Natasha Sarin found that lax enforcement by the Internal Revenue Service has led to hundreds of billions of dollars a year in uncollected taxes from the wealthy, which could reach trillions over the next decade.
Summers — a vocal opponent of the wealth taxes being proposed by Democratic presidential candidates Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders — contends that one way to start making the tax system more fair and progressive without raising rates would be to plug the holes in collection.
The “tax gap” — the difference between the amount due to the IRS each year and the amount collected — grew to just under $400 billion in 2013, according to the IRS. Summers and Sarin estimate based on current income and IRS trends, the tax would total $7.5 trillion over a 10-year period from 2020 through 2029.i mean, what could possibly be done differently, right? jealousy, that's the problem.f the Fortune 500 companies that have already filed their 2018 taxes, 60 were profitable and yet avoided all federal income tax, according to an ITEP analysis released on Thursday. The total U.S. income of the 60—which ITEP reports included such names as Amazon, Chevron, General Motors, Delta, Halliburton, and IBM—was more than $79 billion and the effective tax rate was -5%. On the average, they got tax refunds.
Our tax code is undoubtedly a mess. There are carve outs and subsidies all over the place. No argument from me on that account. It definitely needs to be cleaned up, but neither party wants to do so.
uziq wrote:
obviously when people say 'billionaires should not exist' they are not talking about requisitioning the existing wealth of billionaires. it's about targeting the corporate structures and pay differentials in the first place. that's the sense in which it is a policy failure.
with that said, corporations and billionaires are overwhelmingly not paying their fucking fair share of taxes. this is a complicated problem and surely doesn't involve divesting them of their stocks. it involves everyday, humdrum tax avoidance, by individuals and by corporations. and yes, state-level, national,-level and maybe even international authorities need to get a grip on fucking capital flight and tax evasion.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar … es/583222/If such a thing as American exceptionalism remains, maybe it can be found in this: Despite deep IRS budget cuts, an average audit rate that has plunged in recent years to just 0.6 percent, and a president who has bragged that dodging federal taxes is “smart,” most Americans still pay their income taxes every year. Even more remarkable, most of us feel obliged to pay. To quote the findings of a 2017 IRS survey: “The majority of Americans (88%) say it is not at all acceptable to cheat on taxes; this ethical attitude is not changing over time.”
True, tax crooks might not confess their real feelings in an IRS survey. But other data confirm that the U.S. is among the world’s leaders when it comes to what economists call the voluntary compliance rate (VCR). In recent decades, America’s VCR has consistently hovered between 81 and 84 percent. Most countries don’t calculate their VCR regularly, but when they do, they lag behind the U.S. One paper that gathered what comparative data were available reported that Germany, the top European Union economy, had a VCR of 68 percent.
Other countries score worse, among them Italy (62 percent), the site of a sprawling tax scandal in which about 1,000 citizens were charged last year with bilking the government out of 2.3 billion euros in tax revenue. The public didn’t seem terribly bothered; ex–Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who was convicted of tax fraud in 2013, may have tapped a common sentiment when he said back then that “evasion of high taxes is a God-given right.”
Then there’s Greece, where economists have struggled to even calculate a VCR. According to the International Monetary Fund, more than half of Greek households pay zero income tax. Indeed, tax evasion is practically a national sport. Take the swimming-pool trick. After the 2008 recession, the government placed a luxury tax on private pools. When only 324 residents in the ritzy suburbs of Athens admitted to having one, tax collectors knew they were being swindled—but didn’t know how badly until Google Earth photos revealed the real pool count: 16,974. It’s now common to conceal chlorinated assets with floating tiles, army nets, and pool interiors painted to mimic grass.
What separates Americans from Greeks or Italians? It’s not income-tax withholding, which the U.S. pioneered but Europe has since copied. Higher tax rates may be one factor. Illegal shadow economies, in which goods are sold off the books for cash, are another. (Greece’s black market is the biggest in the eurozone, accounting for 21.5 percent of its GDP.)
Economists say a third factor, one with profound political implications, is tax morale. This is a catchall term for various forces that motivate people to pay taxes, including social norms, democratic values, civic pride, transparent government spending, and trust in leadership and fellow citizens. People are more inclined to fudge (yes, economists use that word) their tax forms if they think others aren’t paying their fair share.
***
It doesn't work like that uzi. Their wealth represents investor confidence in them. They have that money because the stock of the company they own is worth a lot of money. How would you confiscate their wealth? Would you force them divest their shares and give up control of their companies? To whom? Ok, now what? Now that they've divested and you've taxed the dickens out of their one time payoff, what happens next? Do you take the rest? Even if you confiscated every penny from every billionaire it would equal out to about two years of current tax receipts by the American government. Two years. Meanwhile, you will have hurt your future tax revenues by destroying them as income sources, the stock value of their corporations, undermined the rest of the market, and wiped out the common peoples 401k accounts.uziq wrote:
the downside is that their immense wealth could be used for the public weal? that workers could have significantly better lives? that the middle-class could be made far more robust? that people wouldn't have to break their balls all their lives to keep the basic necessities together? i don't know, jay? i guess people are just jealous of elon musk because he dates grimes and has a few nice houses.
What's the downside? They hurt your ego by existing?uziq wrote:
never mind that half of those projects skimmed R&D from state-funded enterprises and the other half gained their market dominance through anti-competitive measures. no, the billionaires are a unique class of supermen and they should be rewarded as such.
can you actually tell me the benefit of billionaires? i don't need to be told about how bill gates set-up a company called microsoft and it became really big.
No, a billionaire represents a success. Our billionaires are billionaires because they created projects that have run wild across the globe. Bill Gates made his money from Microsoft, and you probably have the MS suite on your laptop. Jeff Bezos created Amazon, which is delivering packages to nearly everyone on the planet now. Elon Musk has popularized electric vehicles and delivered people to the ISS. Warren Buffett made his money by investing in companies and making them more profitable and scaling them up. Their wealth represents economic success and it enriches America as a whole. You point out income inequality in America vs other countries, sure, but what global benefit have any of their economies generated? Have they created Google, or Apple, or Tesla? The closest you have is Richard Branson.uziq wrote:
what is the wealth generated by a polity and a society ultimately even for? wealth for it's own sake? the profit motive extrapolated to its nth degree? all that production, labour and ingenuity only makes sense if it drives society in a way perceived as being good for all. billionaires are basically moral cripples. a huge proportion of americans live paycheque to paycheque and without basic necessities. it's a moral stain on your society.
a billionaire represents a policy failure. they are all the products of legislative loopholes. no one can rationally 'produce' or sensibly accumulate that much wealth through their own labour and exertion. it is a complete absurdity.
All of their wealth was made because they held stock in corporations before they went public. They attracted investors because the products they made had global reach. It's not like they were paying themselves billion dollar a year salaries to get where they are today. They didn't take money from their workers. They took money from investors.
Not saying it is everyone's goal, but it's a much more complicated issue than "Billionaires shouldn't exist".uziq wrote:
billionaires should not exist. that wealth was generated by their workers and has it has no purpose being stored in some family offshore account for perpetuity.Jay wrote:
Not always. Among people who advocate in favor of socialism it is generally true though. The whole "Billionaires shouldn't exist" bit gives away the game.uziq wrote:
it's always jealousy with you, isn't it?
in a few centuries' time people are going to look back on this phase of civilisation and wonder how we simultaneously squandered so many resources and distributed the gains so poorly. to say nothing of the distorting effect it has on democracy. e pluribus unum indeed!
do you really think everyone who criticises billionaires is jealous? that everyone's endgame in life is to have a yacht and own a hawaiian island? not everyone is groping after those things my guy.
Not always. Among people who advocate in favor of socialism it is generally true though. The whole "Billionaires shouldn't exist" bit gives away the game.uziq wrote:
it's always jealousy with you, isn't it?
The secret to building a successful social democracy like the one she and Bernie want is to have the wealthy buy into the scheme. By constantly vilifying them, they are guaranteeing their own failure. Why? Because you need the rich and the tax base. Politicians like Cuomo recognize this, which is why he's resisted every Progressive demand for higher taxes on the rich here in NYC. The SALT cap from the Republican tax cut already drove $2.3B of taxable income from New York State to Florida. If they actually won and drove up the tax rates, the rich would just move to other countries or hide their wealth, because they can. They will just end up driving the economy into the ground with deficit spending.
Don't put your eggs in their basket, because they have no idea what they're doing aside from putting forth idealistic sounding plans with no hope of success and playing on people's jealousy.
Don't put your eggs in their basket, because they have no idea what they're doing aside from putting forth idealistic sounding plans with no hope of success and playing on people's jealousy.
Not creative at all, I know.DesertFox- wrote:
Wow. Never heard that before. What attack helicopter do you sexually identify as?
If you want to live in a society that guarantees jobs, health care, and housing, I suggest moving to Cuba or Venezuela.DesertFox- wrote:
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1013784599019782145
A platform with largely reasonable and popular positions that only strikes fear into the hearts of Fox News watchers. It's no surprise to me that some old bastards have no problem condemning future generations to live in desperate times of resource wars and migration due to climate change, even though many of them have kids themselves, strangely. Those of us who reckon we'll be around for a while still might have an incentive to ensure the future isn't a miserable shithole.
Because every election cycle, stories of missing ballots being found in the trunks of Democratic operatives, and the like, make their rounds. Republicans are convinced that Democrats commit voter fraud on the regular and that this gives them another chance at stealing elections.uziq wrote:
and what's the reason why the republicans have been shitting themselves over postal votes and raising the spectre of voter fraud, to disenfranchise non-white and lower-income voters?
Nearly every generation spends their 20s as idealists that want to overthrow the status quo and change the world. Bernie and AOC appealing to people in their 20s isn't really all that important or world altering. They would've voted Democrat anyway. People tend to get more conservative as they age.uziq wrote:
neither of them are important. they are talking to young people about political issues. what's trump's current platform? 'the other side don't respect statues or jesus!'Jay wrote:
Bernie is a fossil, and AOC is a complete moron that can't get out of her own way, and thus gives her opponents an easy bogeyman.uziq wrote:
i do scoff, because bernie sanders and AOC represent living american politics today, contemporary debates, and the founding fathers and jesus are in the same category as santa claus at this point.
great politics! they're coming for JEBUS!!!
amazing policy.
Incidentally, this is why some among the Democratic Party establishment have been agitating to lower the voting age to 16. They don't trust them to smoke or drink or own a gun, but they sure trust them to Vote Blue.
If you say so. You like her, so naturally you think everyone else should, or already does, too. Most people do not. Most people see an entitled, immature kid that doesn't understand the world, but wants to reshape it anyway. She is the poster child for what other generations think of millenials. Her Green New Deal was just about the greatest gift she could've ever given the Republican Party.DesertFox- wrote:
It's an effective campaign message to people who are already Republicans, as witnessed by the Boomers I see on Facebook complaining about term limits specifically for Nancy Pelosi. However, that is a cohort that isn't exactly demographically favored. AOC, a Millennial who grew up and lived in the conditions the rest of us have experienced, is gonna seem more in touch with the common person than golden toilet Trump or the millionaires in Congress.
It likely is, yes.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
"This is a winning message"
I merely said it was an effective campaign message.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Classic jay, lamenting pathetic polarization of American politics out of one side of his mouth while dismissing Trump's words as "just playing to his base" out the other side and calling it a winning message.
It's almost as if, like, you don't actually have any values, and instead they change based on who delivers the message.
Bernie is a fossil, and AOC is a complete moron that can't get out of her own way, and thus gives her opponents an easy bogeyman.uziq wrote:
i do scoff, because bernie sanders and AOC represent living american politics today, contemporary debates, and the founding fathers and jesus are in the same category as santa claus at this point.Jay wrote:
He's playing to his base and many independents. You scoff, but people revere the Founding Fathers, and the appeal of Bernie Sanders and AOC is limited to people in their 20s for the most part. This is a winning message in American politics.uziq wrote:
surely this guy has got to be losing his shine at this point. it's inane.
great politics! they're coming for JEBUS!!!
Oh, I'm not saying it makes any sense, or is accurate. Biden is hardly the poster boy for democratic socialism. But it is an effective line of attack to associate Biden with them, because most people think they're bat shit and that their ideas are dangerous. Pretty much every Republican smear for the past two decades has invoked Pelosi as the bogeyman. AOC is the new Pelosi.DesertFox- wrote:
I mean, calling your opponents communists has "worked" as a smear for the last century or so in American politics, up til a certain point where a "democratic socialist" starts saying things that a majority of people agree with and then realize it's just a boogeyman. However, what Trump said is patently ridiculous. It'd be nice if Joe Biden was secretly down for real M4A, lowering wealth inequality, and tackling systemic issues but I'm not holding my breath on that. I doubt the average American is as down for removing statues of Washington, but I bet there'd be less tears shed about getting rid of some Confederate POS.
He's playing to his base and many independents. You scoff, but people revere the Founding Fathers, and the appeal of Bernie Sanders and AOC is limited to people in their 20s for the most part. This is a winning message in American politics.uziq wrote:
“The patriots here today fled socialism to find freedom,” Trump said. “And now Joe Biden and the radical left are trying to impose the same system.”
The president continued, “Joe Biden is a puppet of Bernie Sanders, AOC, the militant left, the people that want to rip down statues and monuments to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin.”
Trump then repeated his bizarre claim that Democrats are pushing for the removal of statues of Jesus Christ. “Jesus! Okay, Jesus. They want to rip down statues to Jesus,” Trump said, before confidently predicting Biden would lose the election.
surely this guy has got to be losing his shine at this point. it's inane.